It looks as if teams who play against Carlton pace themselves to win games. They stay within reach of victory then blow them out of the water with an outstanding quarter to win the match. Only on a few occassions have we suprised teams Melbourne & Essendon*, every other match has gone along those lines. Simply the team is not good enough at the moment, and will take time to evolve into a better side.

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Spoilt by the past. But patient for the future!!!

Not experienced enough yes, not good enough no.

You have to remember a lot of it comes down to something as simple as how many preseasons are in the legs.

It's frustrating while you're watching those final qtrs & there will no doubt be more of those type of losses this year & next, but seriously, big deal. Enjoy watching Carazzo Bentick Betts Blackwell Murphy Walker etc knowing how much better they're getting each month & what they'll be like in 2008.

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#DonTheStash

wow carlton OS Blues - anymore meaningful insight.........your not a half full type of guy are you?

we are 15th on the ladder, what more could you expect? how do you feel about the development of some of our younger blokes?

Just to try and expand on that a little further.

What I am finding frustrating as an observer now of a team building from the ground up with youth is the waiting process.

I've also come to realise that 18-20 year old players are not going to run games out the same way as more experienced players. If you have too many of these young players in the middle it just makes it impossible sometimes.

I really do enjoy watching the development of these players.

BUT

That was what the reserves competition was for, developing players.

Now more and more players are being developed in the seniors.

As a result of the much smaller lists developing players in the Reserves is a luxury some clubs cannot afford.

Denis Pagan was right a couple of weeks back when he described the competition as being 'two-tiered'.

In very simplistic terms you have 8 teams of men playing 8 teams of boys.

I cannot remember a time in the VFL/AFL when so many 18-20 year olds were playing senior football at the same time across the competition.

I reckon the balance is out of whack at the moment and the whole competition is suffering because the list restrictions are not allowing 16 teams of roughly equal experience playing at the highest level. It's only half a competition at the moment.

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Exactly right, Jars.

I raised this topic in This Thread, and Deano did the same in This Thread

The AFL administration is strangling the competition by reducing lists and cutting out real reserves comps.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Jarusa - this is what the myopic tools in charge of the game wanted. Small lists because there was not enough talent around the country for 16 teams.

Wanted to spread the talent around as they were sick of 5 clubs just dominating the competition through the late 60s to late 80s (ie. Essendon*, Carlton, Hawthorn, Richmond, North Melbourne).

Now they have got 8 teams "vying for a finals" with 8 teams "developing".

Is this better??? - we will see in another 10 years or so - when the tools at the AFL House get the crumbs left over after the FFA take the lions share of the FTA Channels Budgets for TV Rights Money.

Why pay shitloads for a two tier AFL Competition when you can pay shitloads to see the Socceroos vying for the Asian Cup one year and the World Cup the next, and throw in Melbourne Victory vying for the Asian Version of the Champions League.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

No arguments there. Well, not too many.

Clearly something the AFL has to consider.

In the old days a crap team was crap because their men were no match for the other men in the competition. These days a team is crap because it is a team of boys competing against a team of men.

I fear instead of changing the list structure to make it a competition of teams of roughly equal experience, the AFL will keep going down the road of changing the game (taking away the physicality) so that teams of boys are more able to compete against teams of men.

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Then the only place your going to see a full on "rugby style tackle" in the future is in the 18 yard box by Josip Simunic.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I don't understand the problem Carlton Old Skool Blues,

look at it this way. The reason we were beaten on Friday night was because of the Kangaroos mid-old age players. This list includes Harvey, Simpson, Rawlings, Petrie, Thompson, Jones, Harding, Brown, Hale, etc. Now then, remember 2004? In the second game we took North to the cleaners. Why was this the case? The answer was Teague, Scotland, De Luca, McGrath, Morrell, Harford, Camporeale, Kouta, etc.

See any similarities? Just like our win in 2004 was fools gold, so too was the Kangaroos' on Friday night. Indeed, their mid-senior age players could only just hold out our young kids. The loss means we will almost certainly have a top 3 pick in this draft. Hopefully we will have about 3 top 20 picks in total this year.

Now, would I be backing Simmo, AB, Betts, Walker, Murph, Blackwell, Kennedy, T-Bird, Bower, Hartlett, 2006 pick number 2, 2006 pick number 18, and 2006 pick number 20 against North next year? You bet I would. Would I pick them in 2008 against North? I reckon we'll be about a 10 goal better side than them at that stage.

Just sit back, calm down, smell the roses..... cause for the first time, I reckon there is some real light at the end of the tunnel for all of us in this whole sorry affair of rebuilding the club

Totally agree, Molly. The last 2 losses have been the most relaxing of ALL the many, many in recent years. I saw so much in Murph, Blackwell, Simmo and all those you mentioned, while the Kangas needed all their experience to get them up.

We're in good shape, and with Waite, Fish and Kennedy to come in, the signs are even better.

I can only be impressed with Denis' plan of developing Simmo, Blackwell, Bentick, Rusty and Carrazzo. These blokes obviously needed more time in the other grade before they could handle the big time and are now showing the dividends for the investment .

Beautifully put Molly

Interesting thread...

Add to above thoughts the feeling at the club that "we are simply building a team from scratch and that will take time..."

We have a senior team of kids taking the knocks, and in the Bullants we have another team of kids building and enjoying a winning culture (obviously at that level).

I was lucky enough to be at the Pres lunch a few weeks back (sitting next to Jim Buckley and Dave Hughes...dropping names) and the comments focused on looking at both teams as a whole.

Yes, we need a few key players, but the development of ALL our kids (in whatever team) places us in a good position for future years.

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"...that's the thing about opinion - you don't have to know anything to have one..." Andre Agassi commenting on Pat Cash 2004
"...the less you know - the more you believe..." - Bono 2006

Maybe not hungry enough in "the crunch" either. Just got to want it a bit more. Playing better footy though since the "home truths" meeting mid-season. Looking a bit like the side that at least finished last season off pretty well (until it was time to tank the last 2 games).

I look forward to seeing how Carlton will lose the match to Brisbane.

Will they kick 10 goals in the first quarter - and none for the rest of the match?

They haven't done that one yet.

Or will they be in close at half time - kick 8 in the 3rd and then none in the fourth.. oh that was last week.

Just can't wait to see them lose to arrogant brisbane. Not a big fan of brisbane...but hey.. .i am sure we can find some unique way to lose to the AFL's love child.

Where your theory re: the kids inability to run out games falls drastically short is the youth of the Bulldogs, Saints in 04, Hawks at times this year etc.. all young lists, all winning games..

Don't underestimate the self-interest (greed?) of the players when looking at the reduction in lists. List reduction just happened to occur around the time there was also a significant rise in the player payments. Players had been arguing for a higher cap for years and one way of giving each player more was to spread it among fewer players (along with lifting the cap itself).

If the players association was willing to do a deal to allow 6 more players on each team's list but keeping the same cap do you think the AFL would say no? Of course not, it'd solve a number of problems - reducing the high injury toll among them.

Do you think the players would agree to that though? Not bloody likely.

At the moment the average salary for an AFL player at a club with a $6.2 million cap is $163K. Add another 6 players to the list and that'd fall to about $141K.

Is an AFL player worth $163K or $141K?

Neither - the wage is a completely arbitrary figure that's based on what they can get out of the system.

One thing they've got out of it is shorter lists.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

this question was put to Buckley - of the shakers in that group GWS - never has a bloke umm and arrhed and said @#$%&! all as red faced as Bucks did - after how can he answer 'no, we want more money for ourselves.'

If there is a single thing I hate most about the whole lists/drafts etc it is the fact that less people are given a chance to taste from that ever growing pie.


Part of me yells 'oh rock on world football!'

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Interesting comments guys and some good points all round i put a different slant on the state of lists and how it reflects on some of the clubs
If clubs work and use the draft and balance there lists then we will see a pretty even competition

The Blues as we all know where the worst in adopting the whole new era of the draft yep been done to death but the fact is that we have only started 2 years ago to really accepting we have to start from scratch and build a side up and have suffered with to many aging passengers ... refusing to imbrace the draft and of course draft sanctions. All of these factors reflect today where we dont have that solid core of over 25 Senior players that some of the other lists have ... and that is the key to the future when we do get our list right that we maintain the balance of the new and senior members on the list. so that players are moved on just be for they loose there gloss but stay to add and nurture the new up coming kids .. and we never ever forget how important the draft is to maintaining your list.

The Lists which have developed from the early 2000 period include Saints and Bulldogs with the abilty to tap the best talent from the draft for several seasons including Prioity picks. the results have shown now i guess another 5 years will show if they learn how to maintain those lists in the future ... think Bulldogs will with Eade not sure about Thomas though.

The Hawks and Tigers have been the other more recent clubs to really embrace the draft and are 1-2 years ahead of the blues and Tigers prob have the edge over the hawks as they have a better senior core than the Hawks as the hawks have really gone to build there list from the draft and sacrificed alot of senior experience (see Kanagaroos lol) to get more from the draft.

The Pies slumped for a season but that wasnt for any reason other than injury problems in 2005 other than that they had and still have a good list with a good balance of Seniors and youth. rem only 2-3 years ago they played in 2 Grand finals. And 2005 allowed them to have a slight hiccup and pick up 2-4 good kids.

Port similar to pies but they had a Premiership cup as there claim to fame but more so they have quickly moved to mix up there list with good young talent before there aging senior brigade loose there use by date.

Bombers have held out for a long time and generally been good at re-inventing there list with good trades but maybe recently has caught up with them and also have had major key injuries to key players re Lloyd and Hird and a few others...

Adelaide and Westcoast have been able to keep a good mix and have a good spread of seniors and youth and have been able to manage pretty well.

Melbourne seem to have a good balance after many up and down years ... go into the finals one year / duck into the bottom end to pick up more talent.. now seems to be balancing out and they have suffered in alternate years and looked good in the other year lol so fans can be happy then down in the dumps but then following year happy again errr something we prob would have liked we just been unhappy for several years in a row.

Brissie have sustained ultimate success for 3 years in a row and who can tell them other wise except to keep there players in tact... Also they have quickly moved to bring youth into there aging list and i reckon they will balance out pretty well. They did a Essendon* except one 3 flags and have also been quick to look at bringing in kids in to take advantage of the senior experience.

Freo errr ummm basket case good talent just dunno where they going one of the few teams that just hasnt really know where they are going.. bit of a tragic case freo ... dunno where they are as they should be in the same place as the Bulldogs and saints but they are not anywhere near them.

Geelong - Similar to tigers in that they have travelled aling and been able to get access to some good picks not the best but done it consistantly and with F/S picks also. they have travelled like the Tigers but been closer to the saints in how there list is good list without having super players. good balanced side when playing well

Sydney and Kangas are two teams which i reckon will have the bleakest furture both because they have to have some success to keep them up Sydney cause they are in Sydney and Kangas as they lack much support.
Sydney have tried to avoid changing list to much and traded to get players to help them without giving something up that will hurt them but now they have a premiership may help in giving them time to develope youth.
Kangas ... hmm dunno they are 2 years behind the blues in developing youth and not because of sanctions but more to keep playing finals when the list has big problems and they have continued to trade players in favour of youth.... they have to go the draft this year or they will be in big trouble.

I think overerall most teams will be very aware of the importance of bringing kids in and balancing with senior experience if managed correctly will make the competition more balanced so teams will be closer in lists and will then depend on tactics and coaching. So will eliminate the kids vs senior lists suggestion some have remarked.

Those who dont adopt the draft as very important will only need to look at the damage it does for many years to come (see Blues) lol

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run