I don't care.........I'm very happy to blame Pagan for most of our problems, although players need to take some respensibility too. 19 wins from 78 games, 1 loss in every 4 by 10 goals or more with a list that's better than many think and gone from bottom to bottom in 4 years. Any list, irrespective of it's ability, should, at least, show some improvement as a team over time, which we haven't. A good coach would achivee that at least. Guus Hiddink (Socceroos) and John Connelly (Wallabies) have demonstrated what can be done with a good coach that the players really want to play for. Same players, far better results. Be the same here too. Coach does make a difference.

The last couple of games have been much better although the side that beat us was no better than us on the ladder, so that has to be taken into account too when judging the performance. Even so, better game plan, application and run. That freedom can only help develop our youngsters. Just need to be hungrier when "the crunch" is on in the last quarter. Get run over way too eay after doing great work to set ourselves up.

I have been remote,therefore missing in action on this site for a bit.However i have watched or heard of the past 2 performances in Perth and a the dome.

All I have to say is that:

I am heartened by the performances os Simpson and Murphy.

It is good to see that Whitnall has been given the captains job.

Lappin looked better last week than he has for a couple of years.

Scotland still needs to take a valium before he kicks the ball.

Fev was reasonable but a little loose as expected.

Otherwise.... I didnt miss much on this site.

We are getting better and its gonna take a long time.

Sounds like a broken record doesnt it


Oh well...the kids are getting there.

and P.S

Pull your head in Moaty, McLaren has been a pretty good pick up for the club. He had a bad game last week but shit happens. We dont need shit thrown at players who have potential.

_________________
Revenge is a dish best served cold

&

I AM PROUD SPONSOR OF THE CAROLINE WILSON HATE CLUB

Thank you Denis........................that's all i ask for!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot begin to describe how happy i was to read this.

No more calling our players 'Z-Grade'.

No more pointing the figer.

No more blaming on lack of draft picks.

Thank you Denis.

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Um - good theory but although they both go under the banner of the Carlton Football Club you're talking about two different lists.

There are 27-28 players on our list who weren't senior players in 2002.

We won a spoon that year because we had the finest collection of spineless whinging harpies the football world had ever seen. We won a spoon last year because we had a very young list without much serious top flight talent and the remnants of the spineless whinging harpies.

Two different years - two different teams.

We may yet pick up a spoon this year but if we do it will be for all the right reasons (young kids etc) rather than all the wrong ones (lack of character etc).

To suggest that we're going nowhere fast (which is what you seem to be suggesting) misses the point somewhat.

_________________
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

yes but some want to miss the point - that's the point, in case no one had pointed that out to you

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I get the point.......................at least, i think i do!

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

There are some really interesting points here. I totally agree that Pagan should not be above criticism and he has made mistakes. What I get sick of is that some people just seem to have knee jerk reaction that he is too blame, or that carlton are not going anywhere.
The bottom to bottom argument is a prime example of a knee jerk reaction without doing enough analysis.

That knee jerk reaction come over 4 years not 4 weeks, which would be classed a a knee jerk reaction. You think it should take 6-7 years?! You know what a knee-jerk reaction is? I think there's been more than enough analysis. Proof of the pudding's in the eating and we've "tasted like crap". Half a game worse off than this time last year. Thus no progression, something at least you should get with any list irrespective of the standard. The fact is we've gone no-where in that time with a list that should be doing better than it is. Anyone other than a blind person can see that.

no others simply see things differently jim.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

The whole dynamic of the team has changed since last year, in particular this week's team. The problem is people are trying to measure success by analysing our win loss ratio.

This team has six new players in it (if you count O'Ailpin and Russell as they hardly got any game time in their solitary games last year), with added responsibility to Bentick and Simpson. That's almost half a side of new faces the oldest being McLaren who is 24. Add Walker and Betts to the mix. Thornton is only 22.

Sure we've still got a few deficiencies which need rectifying, but to say we're going backwards just because we are half a game worse off than last year doesn't cut it in my books.

I'd prefer to see this week's team over one featuring McGrath, Chambers, Sporn, Teague, Prendergast et al.

Its not the win/loss ratio that grate people (even though I think we could have performed better in each of the pagan years) - its more how the team plays and the approach to selection, game plan and the like.

I dont think its any coincidence that there has been a lot less criticism of pagan in the previous two weeks since we changed our game plan (played more attacking football), utilised the bench (at least doubling our normal rotation frequency), gave young players set positive roles (rather than tags) and game time. We've still lost the past couple games and it still hurts to lose - the difference though is that having a sense of direction makes it a bit easier to stomach.

On win/loss ratios and pagan - fact is we paid pagan big $ because he was apparently a good coach and could get the results we needed sooner rather than later. I think it would be difficult to convince any neutral observer that another coach couldnt have achieved results of 15th (with performances deserving of a spoon side), 10th, 16th and what looks to be 15th over 4 consecutive seasons. In fact, I'd argue most people would have expected better results from an average coach. Basically all pagan appears to have done over his tenure is turn over players and accumulate draft picks - realistically that isnt eye brow raising team development (which is the only reason why you would pay more for a better coach) and on balance I doubt we will be back in the finals any earlier than if we had another coach.

I'm willing to begrudgingly overlook the fact that we are not getting value for money for pagan (could of saved at least 300k/yr over the previous 4 yrs) provided that we continue to play as we have over the past couple of weeks for the remainder of pagans tenure (ie young/fringe players given opportunity and game time, bench rotations, attacking game plan/mindset) - I think most people would be of that same mindset.

and that seems entirely reasonable 4c.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!