It is a joke Synbad. We have no hope of improving when you've got talented players like Walker or Simpson doing defensive jobs.
Fair dinkum we have Houla doing tags now.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

We all have preferences for footy being played in certain ways.

Look at todays results and the extra 2 men back in defence worked wonders for North over the Bulldogs. Its ugly, but it can work against the right opposition (assuming a bit of skill in moving forward). Id say most teams in the competition play it, and the Crows have perfected it.

Does that mean we shouldn't play it?

Im saying its ok to say were rebuilding.... and thats an excuse to losing .. but whilst were rebuilding what are we teaching them to do???
Dont just say "were rebuilding and thats why"
Tell me how were rebuilding our game plan!!!

thats what i want to know.....

We might be rebuilding FOREVER... !!!....

But what steps are we taking to make sure theyre developing a gameplan.. a playing 'ethos'.. a blueprint on how t9o play this game of footy.

Sure i know were rebuilding... but whats going on?What are they learning???

Yes defensive stuff..what else???

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

If we can win ugly.. like Noth did... wed be looking at 2004 in the face again wont we??

North will not survive!!!.... does that mean we choose to be like them???

they have no kids... they have no game plan... theyre out there trying to survive wiuth 10,000 members.

Thats just rubbish!!!!.....

Thats not rebuilding.....

We need to educate our kids to play a style for the next few years that will allow them to win..

where is it???

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

but if you were being stupid i would refrain from saying you're stupid and just argue the point.

and it could be argued that anyone who claims to know the answers about how to do a job/how others are doing a job wrongly (yukky english) and yet has never had any experience in that job (but perhaps you have coached elite sportsmen?, coached elite level sport etc?) might really not have any idea about what they are talking about.

Which is fine when we remember that everyone on this site (unless we do have people who have coached at an elite level) is only offering opinions based on their distant observations of tasks they know little about, not expertise nor fact.



If we remember that then this site tends not to topple down into the repetitive slagging of 'its all his fault. no it isn't/yes it is.....

Now this will be taken as I love Denis, sadly I don't but I do accept I know @#$%&! all about coaching a club at this level (so far I'd judge I know a bit up to about under 13 (but Jack's getting older and so my involvement with older kids will develop) and so any opinions i offer about Denis are just distant ramblings from a tragic supporter whose team is losing.

Same as when I used to pull my hair out over Parkin's coaching in 93/94.

Its all silly - even your opinions jim - all of us are silly to think we really have any idea. Until we sit in that position and have to make the calls with the pressure etc its just blabbering. Nothing wrong with that unless we start to think our blabbering is better than anyone else's blabbering.

now normally I don't worry about it - even Synbad's incessant need to pretend if you disagree with him the you must love Denis - but sometimes i get sick of the jibes like 'silly' 'ignorant' etc - it deadens this site for me, drags it down to an 'us and them' level (like the tanking/not tanking stuff did last year) This is a site i happen to like as much as you or anyone else.

Its also why i have such respect for bondi - that person always tries to discuss the issues and to be positive to/about other posters. It means you can read those posts and even if you disagree you can enjoy Bondi's thoughts.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Dannyboy you take it too personally. Pagan is struggling, he has since day one. Like Ayres, Frawley, Rhode and Schwab he is not getting the best out of his team. Adelaide, Richmond, Bulldogs and Hawthorn all had underperforming players but instead of just turfing them all out they tried someone else at the helm and the improvement is there for everyone to see.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

1. Kouta 32
2. French 31
3. Lappin 30
4. Whitnall 27
5. Saddington 26
6. McGrath 26
7. Scotland 26
8. Stevens 26
9. Fevola 25
10.Teague 25
11.Prenders 24
12.Livo 24
13.McLaren 24
14.Wiggins 24
15.Sporn 24
16.Houlihan 24

That's our experienced group. So you'd think that there's enough numbers to say we have at least got a core group of experienced players to build a reasonable team around.

Of that group, I would suggest

1.Fevola,
2.Whitnall,
3.Stevens,
4.Scotland,
5.Houlihan,

are the only players that can be considered worthy as the core that we could build a team around, with Fevola as the only genuine 'star', closely followed by Whitnall.

What does this suggest? We're building from scratch. Rebuilding!

We have 18 kids on our list that are still learning (with the exception of Murphy who is a born AFL player).

They have to learn to be accountable, and learn the defensive part of the game, and by now you'd think Walker has served his apprentiship, and if that's all we have been doing for the past 2-4 years, surely some of the others would have developed some 'defensive smarts' by now (rnd 13).

Synbad wrote


And it is fair enough imo to consider that the MC is only doing half a job. What about going the other way and attacking. Surely most of the kids had an attacking spirit and attacking qualities that stood out before they were selected. What about mixing it up a bit. A combination of defensive and attacking play.

Fevola against 2-3-4 players tells me that we are one dimensional, and the opposition know it. OK, we have Waite and Fisher missing, and we know that they are dangerous and capable enough to be given the respect of the opposition, but even when they were there earlier on, we were still talking about the same problem; flooding and skills.

What is it?

A.The kids haven't got it?
B.They're too young to keep up with the pace & physical requirements?
C.They don't know where to go?
D.They can't follow instruction?
E.There is no instruction or multifaceted/ flexible game plan?
F.The only instruction revolves around a one dimensional game plan?

I think we have got such a big group of kids (18-20 of them) and at least 10 of them are going to make it, maybe more. Add a few kids from the 2006-7 draft and our future looks good.

But what about today? Is what Synbad is suggesting so far off the truth it can only be considered as being negative? Synbad, it seems to me, is focussed on accounting for our current showing, 2006... looking for the why's and possible shortfalls with perhaps the MC's approach. I look at possibility E & F as reasonable suggestions for such a performance, and I think Synbad's pointing out something quite obvious; and logically ppresented I may add.

Turnovers are killing us, week in week out, sure, but I can only see one game plan atm. Get it to Fev.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

A good post bondi.

I must admit to be thrilled when Simmo confidently ran in and kicked that inspiring goal yesterday....a rare sight indeed this year.

Why is it that if Fev or Archie doesn't mark the ball; it gets swept away?

I hold hopes for Eddie Betts to develop into a Fraser Murphy or even a Brent Heaver; but despair that our goalkicking arsenal is so bare.

Houla; Whitnall and Lappin were once goalkickers that helped us win games (by kicking goals)....but now they're defenders.....to me a waste of goalkicking talent.

I don't know what to think....logic seems to have deserted us.

Geez bondi you should write books for a living...pages and pages and pages!

Does anyone doubt that we're one dimensional?

My point was that when Pagan came in, unlike most rebuildings, he had very very very little to work with. He had a young Fevola, that no one wanted, a goal sneak named Houlihan, an under-the-weather Whitnall and not much else. We had Kouta - but he was never to be part of the next great Carlton team, the objective for all of our efforts right now... (surely?)

The magnificent Crows had 2 out & out Champs and some more than handy development or luck (call it what you will) through the Rookie List.

When critics of Pagan fire up I feel the need to point this out. someblame draft picks but we had a shocking list in 2002. Many forget that. Who is still around from that time? The above blokes plus Camporeale, Massie...

I think he has done relatively well considering very few have ever had to rework an entire list. With that in mind, 2003 and 2004 were basically write-offs, notwithstanding the apparent improvement in 2004. Since that time, it's open to debate where we have gone. I subscribe to the a) too many second chances given out theory (as espoused by Synbad) and b) not too sure what is happening out there theory (as espoused by many). Being accountable is a fundamental part of the game but have we actually drafted any out and out ball winners other than Murphy? Walker played half back / midfield, Carrazzo was a defensive midfielder (rookied) Russell was a half back / winger. Its not like we've gone after gamebreakers?

The too many second chances combined with a perceived lack of opportunity to youngsters has cost us but it is impossible to estimate the damage. Another 3 Simpsons coming through on the list would do wonders for our pace and drive. Where are they? Lack of list management in 2005 is one error in my book.

Chances to the kids has been debated ad nauseum in here and I wont add to it. It is exhillirating to see so many kids in our best in the 2's, even this week, and we could have been in this position last year. I've consistently said that we are in a better position now than at any time since 2002. I honestly believe that. Some point out 'we could be better' and that's what the debate is all about.

On Saturday we shat ourselves going forward after the first quarter. The runner rarely tries to break the lines, Simmo excluded, leading to many kicks to 1 on 2 or 1 on 3 battles. Whose fault is this?

Na Game I do not take it personally, and I think Denis probably doesn't either

But I do hate the attack on posters just because they have a different opinion, why not just discuss the opinions?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Whether it is Pagan being past it as a coach or we just have the dumbest group of players ever to be put together either way it's not working.
Richmond and Adelaide were holding up the ladder two years ago and we were laughing at them.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Quick question for those defending Pagan

If DP had not been brought to the club and Wayne Brittain was still the coach and we were performing exactly the say way as we are now and acheiving the same results

Would you back Brittain and say he was developing for the future

Or do you just back or think Pagan can get the job done because of his past record . because quite honestly he has done nothing in the 4 years that he been here accept be handed talented players in a draft . thats not good coaching

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Actually Brittain would have probably done the same as denis and coached to win.

You need someone prepared to coach to develop regardless of outcomes.

As for the picks, that's the game and some would argue denis has not played that game at all well because he has coached to win.

as for the laughing two years ago. that's the thing to remeber. i still am happy with the development of this list. That's what i have been focused on. The kids. Do not care about Kouta or Skinny or Stevens. i just want to see us have a group of kids to go all the way, then i want them given time to go all the way.

I understand the argument that perhaps denis is not the one to take these kids all the way but really don't care at the moment who coaches us. I just want to see the kids get games.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

That's fair enough, now get your head out of the f$%^ sand.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Pointing out how hard the task is isn't defending him; its providing context. It's clearing away unfair criticisms. go for broke on the fair ones... like ... .we're 15th.... our class of 2000 all went backwards....the retreads of 2003 has backfired....

Sydney... Brittain was sacked after the first spoon wasn't he? That said he'd have probably been sacked again last year...

Just hope we would invest in skills training

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Agree with all what people say and i guess all you have to do is watch the recent Games where our goal avenue is primarily through Fev i think from stats Fev as a target is the most go to man in the league. This does allow Fev to bag goals but also allows teams to put loads of pressure on FEv with double and triple tags.

In saying all that and given our current results i still am encouraged with some of the new kids ie Players like Murphy blackers and JFK have given hope for the future years. Players Like Simmo / Walker developing nicely still have work to do but getting there.
Also next year we will hopefully see the emergence of Edwards / Bower / Russell and Hartlet . Anyway i still see things that encourge me and with another preseason tweaks to the list with the upcoming draft.

I think this year will be the last we can continually point fingers to the list as hopefully we will move on the players which will not be able to contribute to the club and have additions from the so called "Super Drafts"
So i think the focus should be aimed on to the coaching panel if i listed the top3 things to address at the club

End of 2006
1. Coaching Panel
2. List management for the Super Draft
3. Of course Club Management / Board assessment

Of course there are many things that also need fixing.

But We have to change the coaching line up and with the chance of DP not going whether we want or not the obvious targets are Libba and Trout and the new addidtions need to be of the modern game and modern thinking and preferably also media savy and able to comment and have there own points of veiws.
Very rarely do we hear much from Libba i think i may have heard him speak once or twice and i dont think i have ever heard anything from Trout. I want to see some appointed assistants who can comment and have there own views and assist in implementing a proper structure and also to teach the players the skills to implement it.
I do believe our list though has still flaws but also many positives and hopefully some changes will bring some new found belief for 2007.

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

Molsey wrote


I don't know how to take that, but I'll take it on face value.

You probably have 2 of my books, or read them, or looked at them and thought....too long, or you haven't done any of the above.

I like to refer to facts as evidence, in support of my point, or in the above case, supporting Synbad's point, without belittling. Perhaps I should try a different 'post' style: How about this:

I agree with Molsey

Molsey wrote


Whose fault is it? It's been "debated ad nauseum in here and I wont add to it". Maybe it's time for you to start a new 'inspiring' thread (and ban me from it).

Incidently your last post has 484 words in it, and the one you're referring to that I wrote has 470 words.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

i don't think we're actually a team that produces better results and is more competitive than the one in 2002 but i know what you're saying and i'd much rather this team than the '02 one because there is just so much promise and so many good signs for the future and it is just really exciting whereas in '02 we didnt really have much hope a large majority of the players were nearing the ends of their careers and weren't up to afl.

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Last edited by true_blue3 on Mon Sep 26, 1981 5:07 pm; edited 92 times in total

Bondi - please take it as light-hearted or mirthful; I'm not a negative or attacking poster.

I took your 470 word post as free rein to go for it!

Chances to kids have been the hot topic in here for the last year, especially the last month, by just about all posters - wasn't a comment about you at all. I guess one huge positive for Carlton is that we can actually debate that as an issue.... ever since the Parkin days (my Carlton loving era) we've been a fan of experience over youth. I must admit at times to envying the Bombers and how they really throw their kids into it.