no its just when people say silly things and then others call those silly things facts I'm like a bull to a red rag. I wish I could just go play in talking stuff and leave all this 'factual analysis' alone but it just shits me no end - not because of denis, couldn't care less actually, but because it is such shit logic it drives me to despair!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

haven't read this thread - don't need to - I hear ya danny...

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

So let me try and understand this .....

I make silly statements which I should not call facts, even though results the past years (which actually did happen) prove what I am saying, but still is silly in saying it because it's not true. Think I just confused myself. Should know better though, I'm such an idiot.

Maybe you can answer me Danny ....
What would an Eade do with a Whitnall / Fevola forward combination? Hint: Would he formulate a plan to use their strengths moving the ball forward or take one out of the forward line and depend on the other for contested marks against 3 & 4 opponents.

Just one example but I think you get the idea.

Hopefully Carlos plays the season out and next season he will start to look like he belongs there.

The problem with this and many of your arguments Surrey (and I realise you're not alone in this) is that they lack any complexity whatsoever.

A happens therefore B happens. Very few things are that simple.

Dumb - that's all danny's pissed off about.

Nothing's that simple.

You state facts (we've lost a lot of games) and then extrapolate those facts so that your opinions (Denis is shit) miraculously become facts themselves.

None of this takes into account any of the many other varied minutiae that might affect the outcome (young team, no leaders, draft picks, blahdeblahdeblah...).

Now this isn't an argument supporting Denis; this is an argument exposing the paucity of quality in your posts. It's not simply about the Denis argument - it's about almost all of your arguments.

Denis does plenty of things wrong but there's absolutely no way of knowing that Eade would have been any better had he taken over at the end of 2002.

You state opinions.

That's all.

It'd be far more interesting and useful to see posters indulge in actual debate where points are raised, appropriated, claimed, ceded and so on rather than the pathetic Denis is shit/No he isn't trap that this place has fallen into.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

GWS, I understand what you are explaining and your right its not as cut and dry, it never is, but Pagan is just as much to blame as everybody else if not more.

I don't care that in a couple of years will be winning again under Pagan, as far as I'm concerned his showed what his worth. I have stated before even mini-bus can take a group of talented individuals to glory (hopefully he will run out of time), it's what you do with the group at hand that makes you stand out.

I don't subsribe to the notion that we have no leaders. I find Whitnall, Lappin, Stevens, Kouta and others quite good leaders. They have a problem with Pagan in that he does not let them have a say enough eg. how many games do we win when the players have a say
Pagan is a pig headed old man who stipulates, it's my way or the highway and these days with so called "liberations" / "snags", etc .... this old way doesn't cut it anymore.

His game plan was disected quickly at Carlton and we got punished for it because we didn't have the cattle on the park to implement it. He should have manipulated it to our advantage and not let us take a canning for it week in week out.

That is what I'm saying. Others like Eade would have done better, that you can bet on. Hindsight though is wonderful, no doubt, as I was one of those that where ecstatic that the "master" was coming, but I also know when I am wrong.

When you have the worst list in the history of the club, no draft picks, no money its hard to manipulate anything...
Pagan has failed and made mistakes and as I was a supporter of appointing him I guess I have been proven wrong but I dont think Eade was the answer either........
Eade signed onto a team on the way up with a bucket load of young talent and a club committed to a youth policy..he didnt have to think about much or make a decison on the direction of the club just let the ship stay on auto pilot......Pagan didnt have that luxury ......I'd rather praise a chap like Neil Craig who turned around a Crowss outfit that had been on the slide thanks to Ayres and were looking at bottoming out......

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

I wasn't talking about Pagan...

I was talking about arguments and facts...

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

Since the mid-season break Pagan has given the likes of Setanta, Russell, Blackers good gametime and it's been very refreshing to watch them blend into the AFL scene. Luckily for Setanta he got a reprieve the other week (when JR got crook) and kept his spot. He would've been back toiling away with the bullants and more time being wasted with his AFL level development.
Why couldn't these young blokes have been given these opportunities from the start of the season? Wasting time IMO.
The lack of a decent forward setup & instruction has hindered JKs ability to get into the game. It's painfull to watch.
It goes the other way with AW. He's been getting the key playmakers for the opposition almost every week which is great for his learning but he's 20 years of age ffs & physically he's getting seriously run down & flogged, and I'm worried for him. It's overkill.
There's young blokes chomping at the bit in the bullants to get the callup and begin learning at the next level. Time is going by ...other clubs are improving faster.
From my point of view the development at AFL level (not at VFL level) hasn't been good enough.

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There's so much I could say...

I was talking about Pagan and facts.

We are discussing football GWS - why do we have to bring facts into it.

Everything is speculative so why not bend and twist what you are saying to suit your point of veiw . We are not dicussing the pro and cons on how to solve the middle east crisis . We are talking bullshit about a group of blokes running around an oversized field kicking a ball .

We can do this because of the place we live in and the troubles of a surburban football team far out way any problems we have in our society at the moment

So forget all about Facts this is all about opinion and if you want to use facts make them suit your arguement

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Thanks for your modus operandi Sydney. It all makes sense now...!

I thought we were talking about Setanta How did we get here??

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end of message

Like everything else its about Pagan.

Pagan is the new tanking

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

I know this is about Setanta but we seem to have moved to DP and Eade. I wish we had let Britts have his extra year and if it didn't work then get Eade who I think based on his and DPs performance over their careers it is clear Eade is far more imaginative strategically. Hard to prove, but I doubt he would have sat on his hands as a premiership went down the drain as DP did in 98. While no-one can definitively say whether we would have been better under another coach, it is hard to imagine we could have been worse. But maybe DP is really in for the long term and short term pain will mean long term gain, just wish he'd get a few assistants with imagination and match day smarts around him...but getting back to SO'h, maybe DP has handled him really well and we are starting to see the benefit of that. Still I'd be really glad if DPs contract was up at the end of this year so we could judge his future without our hands been tied.

As much as I like Eade and admire what he has done at the Doggies, he did seem to completely lose control of the Swans at the end of his tenure there.

When Roos took over as coach it was as if the Swans had been chained up under Eade - they were a different team altogether.

It will be interesting to see how Eade progresses with the Dogs.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

I will give you my opinion on Setanta.

As much as I wish this guy and his brother all the best and like most on this site wish that they succeed I will be surprised if they do.

I think that in the position that the club has been in for the last 5 years we should not afford the luxury of experimenting with untried and untrained and unskilled footballers . I think every player on that list should be capable of playing the game at the highest level and not be taught the game from scratch

I read that they are committed
I read they are athletic
I read that they are determined

All of which are good attributes to becoming a footballer

But if I was to go into any football league with in Australia I would find blokes who are just as committed and just as determined , Maybe not as atheletic who are not getting a run with Carlton for the simple fact they dont come from overseas.

If we went into this years draft and three years down the track the draftee was performing at the Level that Setanta is we would be looking at unloading him. He turns 23 next year

Just my opinion and hopefully I am wrong .

I dont think Shaw was being to harsh

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I disagree. I think in our position we needed to be adventurous with selections and am disappointed we haven't tried more smokies late in the draft. Given how far behind we were:

a) we could have played safe and built a new list over 4-5 years or
b) used key selections on likely types and taken a punt on smokies, neglected players and late picks.

No real need to point out that b) delivered Fisher, Houlihan, Deluca, and maybe Setanta, Raso and Bryan (if they make it).

We have had plenty of those types at the club (we may lose some of them at the end of the year).

'Hard to prove, but I doubt he would have sat on his hands as a premiership went down the drain as DP did in 98.'

To half time The Crows had been comprehensively outplayed by the Roos for the entire half and were only in touch on the scoreboard because of strangely inaccurate kicking by North.

In fact, North was so dominant in the second quarter that the game appeared over, however the Roos could manage only three goals and 10 behinds, giving them a half time lead of 24 points, when the lead could easily have been closer to 10 goals. Had it been 10 and it was only the inaccurate kicking (nothing to do with the coach unless we are now saying it was Pagan's fault that blokes like Carey where missing from anywhere) the game would have been over.

As we know (and every coach/writer and player and his dog sprouts) it is all about scoreboard pressure. Pagan showed his hand and completely outcoached Bliught in that first half - with nothing to lose blightey did a Barass and Denis's men lost faith in themselves. Once they believed they had blown it they were gone.

I do not mind that Blightey gets credit for that second half but lets not forget that on any other day that 3 10 would have been 8.5 or even 9.4
and game over.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!