If we sack Trout will Pagan quit? What hurts me is that we are paying him so much to produce nothing. We could have hired anyone to guide us to the bottom of the ladder and pick up draft picks - for more then half the price.

When we do turn around, if he is still here I for one won't be applauding him.

Penguin - are you Grant Thomas in disguise?

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

Bloody hell. Go though the list and look at the players, especially the young players. I'm sure you're a smart man and can work it out! One thing improving individually, as a lot have, another improving as a team.

You're yanking your own chain, jim.

So, by your logic, anything good in the team is happening to spite Pagan, and the kids are doing it deliberately to show how bad he is, and everything negative is happening because of Pagan? Like an inverse Wallet syndrome?

Get real.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

I guess worse things could happen....

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

The penalties should be biting now thats what they were designed to do

We should not have been hurting this much the previous three years because of the penalties .

missing 4 kids should not equate to winning 3 spoons at some point you have to stand up and be counted .

The article doesn't criticise Pagan thats just me never missing the chance to rip it to him and to wake up monday morning and find someone has started another Pagan bashing thread . I just have to contribute.

I actually posted that article in his defence I am starting to feel sorry for the old bugger

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I understand what you mean, SB, but the severity of the penalty meant that in his first year, Pagan was trying to run a race which there was no way he could win.

Gameplan aside, because that's a whole different pile of crap, I think Pagan is doing pretty well at trying to develop a culture within the Club, and bring on youngsters, some talented, some less so.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Yes it should SB. It goes beyond not acquiring 4 top-line kids in the draft. It compromised our recruiting strategies whereby we looked for stop-gap measures with retreads to minimise the damage and this has compounded our plight. Also, our prolonged mediocrity has set a rot at our club that is now reaching permanent, if not, long term damage. Members are dropping off, attendances are down, revenues are down (sponsors, corporates, etc.), we are a loss making organisation that needs assistance to survive.

The AFL was negligent and derelict in its duties when it dished out those punishments and was too stupid to have the foresight a lot of us had as to the unreasonable and unnecessary damage the penalties were going to have. Now it has not only cost our club, but the greater competition by having a basket case club that needs welfare and detracts from the whole competition as a product.

I still think it is going to get worse for us this year and the AFL will have some very important meetings post season to figure out a way of resurrecting a once powerful club before its too late.

And as for the narrowminded, braindead media, there only NOW starting to realise the excessive damage the draft penalties had on our club! Weren't they all tapping their toes when the sentence was handed down??!! Idiots

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C'mon Blueboys!

Poor old Denis. He looks so tired and defeated in his press conferences. Last night I closed my eyes and just listened, didn't look. The losses seem to be taking a heavy toll on him physically.

I agree, the loss of draft picks really starts to bite this year as those players would have been in the system for 3-4 years. David Parkin has more to do with our current position than Denis Pagan. Unfortunately for Denis he came to Carlton at the wrong time.

We currently need a coach who can bake the cake, not put the icing on it.

No KK this culture thing is a pile of crap . He is not developing anything at all.
I here people say if it wasn't for Pagan Fev wouldn't be there and look at the improvement in Fev. Fev wanted out last year and Pagan wanted rid of him the trade was nearly done.

The only culture he has developed is a losing culture there doesn't appear to be to much morale around the playing group . The blokes are not putting their bodies on the line and the senoir players are just going through the motions.

no culture - no development- no game plan - no structure - no improvement .

The only thing that has kept him in job is lack of money

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Personally, I think the losing culture comes from pre-Pagan.

We're generally agreeing, SB, but seeing the issue from different angles, and seeing our own take on how those issues can be approached from different angles.

I don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on Pagan, but we're walking parallel roads.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

I wanted to know which ones you were referring to that were meant to have made his job so much easier.

If the players are improving he must be doing something correct.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Agreed. But I thought he spoke quite well under the circumstances, especially in reference to playing the kids.

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What I don't get is that Carlton from 2002 went:

2002 - Last
2003 - 15th
2004 - 11th
2005 - Last
2006 - Probably Last

What got you to 11th with 10 wins in 2004, and where is it now?

Or was it just a case of playing with good old G&D after the 02/03 seasons?

In my opinion, you aren't suffering now because of the penalties in 2002. You are suffering now because of not putting enough effort into developing a good list in the late 1990's and early 2000's. Someone in this thread alluded to the fact that the Pagan's fate was determined before he even got there, and I tend to agree.

The penalties from 2002 will be what hurts you from now on and the culmination of suppporter expectations, poor performance, bad management, poor list management and now AFL intervention, are working against one another as you try to turn it around.

The key decision in the modern phase of all this was to re-sign Pagan in my opinion.

This has badly compromised your club.

But, Brad, didn't you know....if the players get better, they're doing it in spite of Denis. Maybe even to spite him.

And if the players get worse, it's obviously all his fault.

The above is a summation of "The world according to Jim"

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Can I be the first person in this thread to ask if we can bring back Wayne Brittain?

....and ask if we would've been better off retaining him?

....if we would've been more successful?

....and if Maxwell Gratton's Optus push was our last chance for a Flag?

....and how longs a piece of string?

.....and if my Auntie had balls; would she be my Uncle?

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Yeah he said some interesting things, some of which was summarised in a newspaper article today. It must be tough, losing week in week out, and having to face the media after yet another loss. And you'd think it'd be difficult for him to go home and have a nice meal and good night's sleep -- particularly given we have Melbourne coming up on Saturday.

The AFL have not given us 1.5 mill to pay Pagan out....simple solution is make Pagan director of coaching(special projects) and make Mitchell the match day coach similar to what happended with Parkin and Brittain...the Bullants can appoint Daniel Harford as coach...
Pagan gets his money, Mitchell gets a shot at the big time and we get better junior development with Denis out of the picture....Elshaugh and Libba have their positions terminated as part of the restructure...
Paul Hudson or another specialist in junior development to take one position......maybe a Don Pyke could be offered the other role however to be fair to Mitchell you wouldnt want a potential instant replacement breathing over his shoulder so I might look at someone else.....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

I think it was probably a combination of things. mainly a bit of luck in close games and playing teams with nothing much to play for. Richmond and Hawthirn were more basket cases than us in 04. Collingwood were disinterested and we beat them narrowly both times. The Crows were just waiting to sack Ayres and we beat them by a few points. We had luck in winning most of the close ones. But we also copped some monumental hidings. We are at least not copping many enormous thrashings. One of tyhe main things is we have very few 24-29 year olds. So Kouta and Lappin and French are fast disappearing down the slippery slope and then there is a group of really young players who we hope take us forward but in that core 24-29 range we only have Whitnall Fev Stevens and Scotland. Until we at least get a good ruckman and at least three really good midfielders we will be ordinary. Look at West Coast. They lucked in with Judd at 3 in the one draft they had a high pick then got Kerr in a steal and Cox and Fletcher as rookies, suddenly a great midfield with Cousins and Embley. If we had those first four we'd be okay. But we don't and we're not.

Excellent points ADP.
The simple answer is the BOARD have put a PLAN together to get the most top picks we can over the next 3 years (2005-2007), with 2008 being the start of the revival. The problem is there might not be a club around by then to complete what surely is NOT a culture Carlton members will ever support. With a bit of luck they might see the light (albeit it late) at the end of this year and play to win from 2007 onwards.
With a bit of luck.