The rookie draft is where the interstate sides can really make a killing. Particularly in SA and WA. It is so hard to commit to an interstate rookie that the SA and WA teams are able to take half of an entire state's rookies. We get a 10th of the Victorian ones. ANd that isn't even taking into account the greater numbers of rookies allowed to some interstate sides.

I don't think Freo pulled a rabbit out of the hat with Sandilands. There were issues about bringing him into the city (which would have been magnified incredibly by resettling his family and him in Melbourne), but I doubt whether many recruiters would not have been attracted to a 211 cm ruckman in the rookie draft.

[quote ="Gerry Atric"]We are at least not copping many enormous thrashings[/quote]

No, not at all, every 4th game is a 10 goal belting, simply not acceptable - may not have had too many 80 plus losses but may as well have. We are not really having 'honourable losses' - can only think of the Eagles game. Many other games have been teams taking the foot off the pedal.

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

Been saying it isnt a level playing field and I agree with this post...the interstate teams have a great advantage with what they have in their own backyards...and the ease of how they can identify and get players ...Vic clubs have to weigh up costs and return home risks and its often not worth it for rookies or late picks ..safer/cheaper to go with Vic kids however you have 10 teams competing for local talent unlike SA and WA where its just two....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

I heard Smorgon on 3AW yesterday before the game. He was certainly talking tough when it came to the subject of a review of the coaching staff. I get the feeling with Smorgon that talking tough might only be the extent of it (hopefully I'm wrong!). I firmly believe that Pagan should be forced into a director of coaching role from next season for 2 years. We need to appoint an assistant who is going to be as hands on as possible with the players - something similar to Harvey with the Dockers. Pagan will be the official coach obviously but will have to step back in terms of the day to day training skill development etc. Time will tell if this club is serious!!

Some things just are.

Carlton are crap...and you can't change it simply by saying "This is unacceptable"

If I had the flu I couldn't change it simply by saying "This is shit, I hate being crook"

We will have to wait.

I agree that our situation is a build up of bad club management stemming way way back. We were arrogant do it our way idiots who are now suffering.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

I think Smorgon was quoted earlier in the year as saying our totally different game plan this year is mainly driven by the assistants, and I presume mainly Mitch, (given that Elshaugh appears only to be there as DPs Smithers). And I don't reckon it is a great game plan. And I don't reckon DP will step aside. If he does or when he goes I'd like someone from outside. Don Pyke sounds promising with a Neil Craig sports science back ground plus knows what permierships are about. Anyway, it's a moot point as Pago's going nowhere. Roll on draft picks. Whoever takes over in 09 might actually have the makings of a good side to work with.

Pagan wasn't coerced into this role in 2002. We had just won our first wooden spoon………it was plain to see for all. He wanted to coach a big club (and one which can afford to pay a huge salary).

He is struggling big time it is obvious. What are his KPI's? Is he meeting them? If not can we come to an agreement on a payout?

And here we go again another f##### review!!! That makes it 1.5 reviews each year in the last 5.

What the heck this one may be paid by the AFL anyways.

It will just come back and say that everything is fine with the coaching department, so why waste money.

ADP - did you enjoy your 2005 tank? Because if you did your club's (and the Hawks) efforts have conspired so that we will miss a PP at the end of the year. Are you happy?

I don't think many on this site will argue with you ADP. Certainly our drafting (or lack thereof) before the penalties got us into this mess, but we effectively lost 5 picks in or around the top 20 in the draft. That translates into probably 3 senior players no with around 30-50 games experience.

Adding in (probably) 3 top round picks this year, we would certainly have some talent to start to improve. As it is, i think the penalties have probably set us back around 18 months.

I think at this point his plan is flawed a little. He appears obsessed with playing corridor footy a point he re-iterated in his press conference. Now I know this is generally what you are told when growing up, but we just aren't skilled enough to play it.

WE burn the first option on most occasions because it is wide towards the boundary. There were so many occasions yesterday where we ignored the wide option (although the man was free) looked inboard and when nothing was on, kicked to the wide option who was now manned up.

Everyone marvels at the swans ability to retain the footy and it is because they kick to the first option regardless of where it is. They generally chip it up the field and then deliver deep into the forward 50. We seem to chip it to half back or the wing and then look to bring it inboard..a decsion that results in a turn over in the middle of the ground or at the top of the arc.

I think we would benefit at this point by playing simple basic footy this means hitting the easy first option even if it means kicking wide.

Assuming no one at the club has the balls, the money, the negotiating skills, or just plain common sense to get rid of or sideline Pagan (assuming that he ain’t gonna leave of his own bat whilst earning $700K a year), why do I get the feeling that the idiots in charge may re-sign him for 2008 and onwards if we have a good season next year ???????

Scary thought huh !!!

Don’t think it could happen ???

We’ll keep in mind that this already happened once before – when we won the Wizard Cup, assumed that by winning a Wizard Cup we were back in town, and therefore re-signed Pagan. Well most of the idiots involved in making that stupid decision are still running the club !!!

Serious question here - Where do you stand with PP's this year?

I'm unclear as to how the new system works (I haven't taken any time to found out either).

I don't know if you're taking the piss, but we have a PP before the second round even though we were rock bottom last year and we will win less than 4 games.

The reactionary commission listened to all the bleeting in the media and in their lack of wisdom decided to lump Carlton in with Hawthorn and Collingwood as tankers.

Result: the cut off for priority picks was made 2 points less than the 18 points we won last year.

And no Hansen and Gibbs who we need as badly as money in the bank.

I better stay on topic, it's all Pagan's fault we drew with Port!

It saddens me to see the players hold the ball up, waste time and be foreced to kick long to a contest just because they have no other options. The players get the blame for that but honestly, they have no other option.

It also pissed me off to see Fisher leading to the same spot as Fev on a few occasions yesterday. WTF? Is there any kind of Forward line structure in place or is Fev doing everything by himself? Me thinks it's the later.
Why did it take so long for somebody to run out and tell fisher NOT to get in Fev's way???? Did that even happen or did Fev take it into his own hands and just tell fisher to lead somewhere else?

Congested players in the same space..................
Flooding at the wrong times.........................
Players just plain not knowing what to do...................

Not good enough from a coach who is paid what he is paid! Just not good enough.

I'm a firm believer in our skills being so bad because the players have no confidence! None at all.
When their confidence had been restored (some-what) midway through the last (mainly by Kouta and Simpson) there were very few errors and some BRILLIANT decision making by the younger kids.

When our kids are playing with Confidence they have the potential to be quite lethal. But they have none, and whilst i'm gonna refrain from laying ALL the blame on Denis, my main reasons for wanting him out is that he does not seem capable of Restoring OR Delivering the confidence our kids need..............and that is killing us~! And it's killing me.

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Nah, not taking the piss, just unsure of how Collingwood were implicated in the changing of the PP system as Rod suggested, that's all.

So PP's are the end of the 1st round now it seems.

The Dawks are the perrenial tankers over the last few years - shit, even their supporters want to lose to get their hands on more talent, yet not finish on the bottom!! They did it last year against the Tigers where they threw the game after being many goals in front in the last qtr!!!

The filth have tanked on two separate occassions, last year and in 99. That game against the Roos last year - they threw it away.

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For some silly reason, you people want to assassinate him, and it's just rubbish. You people. All of you, ALL of you!

Tanking in the purest form of the art, that game.

Don't know about that Gerry. Mitchell appears to be basically an observer on game day.

They really need new blood in there. Obviously Pagan isn't going so I guess Smithers will have to do.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

I'm not even sure that Denis and Barry are even on talking terms. I know they have had their problems in the past which have been said to be all fixed but i'm almost positive that Barry is not a big fan of Denis.

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle