The word hypocrite comes to mind BV, but I'm far more understanding person than your good self.

When Denis continually bagged the players along with Collo in 2003 and 2004, I reckon a lot of the kids' confidence was shot. Some of the quotes were ridiculous. "Give me draft picks and I'll give you wins", blah blah. 3rd year of a 5 year sentence blah blah.

I think the kids' development has not been really the doing of Pagan but rather Barry Mitchell at the Bullants. If that's where most of the kids are playing, then surely their development has been done by Mitchell rather than Pagan.

I don't see Pagan taking any responsibility at all for his actions. It's always "we've got a very young group", "we lack experience" blah blah blah - which means that he's putting the blame fair and square on the kids. He gives the kids a small taste and not enough time to work their way into the game, so a kid plays 20 minutes of 120 and instead of getting a full run in the Magoos, he plays 20 minutes in the seniors. Then they get dropped for only getting 1 possession in 20 minutes...

Heck yeah Pagan's development has been good.....

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

which kids are you talking about - be specific - do you mean Sporn and Livo or are you talking about others - who? Generalisations serve no purpose.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Not being a fan of Pagan but when you look at 8 or 9of the first 11 draft picks are out injured and the other two yet to contribute due to preseason injuries . Denis may have a point in holding back youngsters until they develop physically more.

He may be right on this issue if you look at it solely on the injury stats

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

In any sport kids will develop with, age, maturity, time, experience gained through training and playing simply becoming better players because of it. Some do it because of their coach other do it in spite of the coach. alot of our youngsters have individually developed very well but it shows we are better than what we've been showing all year. The number of wins we've had over 4 years, and the all of 3 wins we've had this year, shows we haven't developed as importantly as a team as we should have. Hopefully that changes in about 5 weeks or so.

or it shows we are still developing as a team - so we can get it right somtimes but never often enough against the pressure of good sides.

I admit that at times denis worries me something fierce, at times i want a hell of a lot more than he gives, both in kids getting games, getting time on the ground, strategies and in terms of his media work - we want to know.

But I am happy with this year - its about what I expected (And if we win another 1 or 2 more than I expected) but the pleasing thing for me is
that we have been competitive in many games, even those against the top teams.

That kids like Tex Simmo AB Blackers Santy Russell, Kennedy are all getting games. With the first 3 really playing settled high quality football.

It was a bugger that Harts has not been fit enough but I hope he and Bower get a run before the year is out.

Things are developing. Three top picks ups this year and things will get interesting.

I hope though that we go for at least 2 more fast midfielder types. This game is only going to get faster.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Pagan has turned over plenty of players at Carlton which he could not develop into better players. Other coaches have had opportunites to draft those players and develop them for themselves.

Does anyone care to give me some of the names of players that have left Carlton under Pagan's development and go on to be better players at other clubs under another coach? There is at least 30 to pick from.

Ricky Mott apparently

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Half of them were recruited to the club under Pagan's reign.
What's your point?

(including Ricky Mott)

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

My point is it was not the number 4 or number 11 pick.

So the development of the following hasn't been good:

Walker - 20 years old and playing well in the back half
Bentick - onball role
Blackwell - gradual intro to onball role
Simpson - in our leadership group

Don't forget Houlihan and Fevola would have gone under Brittain. His last contribution was to get rid of Massie and bring in Eccles - well done Wayne!

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In WADA we trust

Yet Thornton has thrived under the same pressure and is not as tall or heavy.

Sometimes players just don't make it ... regardless of the pick used. Look back at the 2000 draft and not many of the first rounders are still running around. It's time to cut our losses and bring in the new wave.

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In WADA we trust

Of course, how did I not see that?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I think I've lost track here... I don't think BV is blaming Pagan for the failure of Sporn and Livingston...

He's merely taking umbridge that people think that development is all to do with Pagan, and it's not.

How much input did Pagan have into Marc Murphy?

Development is different for everyone - and while BV probably thinks that Denis does play a hand - he also probably feels that in some (or many) cases he could do more, or act differently.

Am I on the right track here BV?

Gotta love how people can seperate grey into black and white.

In the specific cases of Sporn and Livo, you need only look at the injuries they've had to work out why everything hasn't gone to plan since they arrived at the club, and then look at theory behind why they were drafted as to why it was never going to work.

I'm sure those who need answers to those questions can dig them up here somewhere.

Well done Jim.
But the others in this debate are so far down another tangent, they'll never be back.

No.1 Blue used Simpson and Walker as examples of Pagans development abilities. I asked what happened to Livo and Sporn. Have'nt they been under Pagans tutelage for the same period?

Development can be railroaded or assisted by injury, illness, opportunity, physical development, structural weaknesses in the list, attitude, confidence....etc etc etc.

To hold up one player as an icon of development or template for development abilities is simplistic.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

In the end this topic raised the question whether Denis can develop kids? Most posters have taken a position. We all know some kids can progress quicker than others and some kids have no luck with injuries etc.etc. which either hinders or stalls development all together.
Don't sit on the fence.

I agree with all of that BV.

What I want to know though is how can any of us judge whether we think a player's ready for the seniors or not.

Obviously it's going to be different for different players and I'd love to know which coach gets it spot on 100% of the time but how is it that any of us can sit around suggesting player A should have played or player B shouldn't.

Kennedy's a good case. I would have loved him to be out there every game this year but it hasn't happened. That said he hasn't had much of a pre-season and he's coming off an operation. How can we as supporters assess whether he's ready or not?

I keep hearing about how Pagan should have played this guy or Pagan shouldn't have played that guy but without being privy to ongoing dialogue between coach and player how can we know when's the right time?

There are certain things I'd like ALL our players to be developing in like shepherding, tackling and kickouts but whether that's in the seniors, Bullants or on the track I'm not fussed. That, to me is crucial to our development but when it comes to whether player A should be playing seniors or not I have no idea.

I think I'm starting to sound like Carrie Bradshaw again...

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

At the age of 97 I thought maybe you'd have some idea about "grey areas"...

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

Paraphrasing a little...







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