And some of you said that if gave up pick 18 and Waite for pick 1, you wouldn't take it?

IMO Waite is trade baite [sic]. Has some talent but is not harnessed properly. Is it a coaching issue or is it at a player issue?

The basic point is that he needs to deliver what he's capable of which is plenty.

AGAIN I ASK - if the players knew we were insipid and whatever Lappin and French said, then why aren't they changing it??? Because they don't want to??? Why do they not want to change???

WHY DO THE PLAYERS NOT WANT TO CHANGE? I think there's something behind their mentality, and Denis MUST take the blame for it. For too long, he's pulled the wool over our eyes (mine included) and tried to blame the players. I think the players are only playing to instruction, they are being blamed that the plans don't work and no wonder they are short on confidence, which then leads to the capitulation you saw in the first quarter.

Get out of my club Pagan and go and have a dance with your sister.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

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GOOD BYE PAGAN... and don't forget to collect Kouta on the way out !

I'd like to think I've been pretty open-minded on the Pagan issue. I've sat back and watched and listened - in the words of BondiBlue from earlier in the year - I've been watching the whole situation very closely.

Well after yesterday, I don't feel any further need to watch or monitor. Pagan doesn't have the cattle. But that doesn't mean that he is the right man for the job.

In a business lexicon - what we need is a coach who can 'empower' the players. The young blokes need to hit the field honestly believing that they have what it takes to win a game of footy. Then when they get smashed (which will still happen more often than not under another coach) they need to be cajoled through the week so that when they take the field the following weekend they once again believe that they can win.

Young, old, gun, or hack - our blokes look timid out there to me. They are timid to try and play the game in their natural fashion. If they make a mistake they are on the bench. Hell - even if they have a great game, they could still find themselves on the bench for most of the next game. Were the Baby Bombers like this under Sheedy in '93? Of course not - because he actually let them have their heads (he's lost it since then - but that's a different story).

Pagan - for whatever reason - is unable to extract the enthusiasm and passion for the contest for our players. To me that is the sign of a coach who needs to either be in a different time or place. The jig is up, and let's hope that somehow we can extract him from this contract and get some new blood on board.

No the masses want the opiate of honourable 10ths with Pick 7 - thats all the talent we need to fix our list.

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Trading players because you're frustrated with them, or they're out of form etc. is silly. You trade players because you're offered something more than what you value them at. Sure, Waite being all over the shop in the second half of this year might mean the club lowers his internal value a little. But it isn't a reason to go flog him off to the highest bidder just to get rid of him. We need as much talent as possible on the list.



Seriously Clem. Do you really think it's just the players wanting to change? Do you think they're running around out there going "man this is terrible. we're having a shocker" but then deciding, "nah, that's cool, i'll just go with it". Of course they'd love to snap their fingers and fix everything but it just doesn't work like that. They may be professionals, it might be their job, but it doesn't change the fact that they're human. Kids (in general) are more inconsistant, and more likely to have off days than the more mature players. And we have a team with a lot of inexperienced kids. We're much more likely to have half the team turn up and play shockers than the more experienced sides.

Look at Brisbane, they went out with a team of kids, most of whom had poor nights and they got absolutely belted.

If you're going to try and pin it down to just one individual factor (Denis) then you're just looking for a scapegoat, not the reason we were crap. If all you want is a scapegoat to make you feel better then fine, but you're kidding yourself.

We certainly need some quality, I don't know who is better out of Hansen and Gibbs, but I hope it's Gibbs because we need the best player in the draft and we need about three super midfielders....not to mention a ruckman. Gee our decision to draft Livo, Sporn and Wiggo while Daniel Kerr remained in the 2000 draft is looking sound....

Hawthorn have loaded up in the draft and in a few years are going to be a handy side.

Who teaches tackling? Stevens would be the worst tackler and overhead mark in the league. Also again outcoached. I wouldn't blame Setanta, Franklins first goal in the second quarter was because the coaching staff allowed Hawthron to set up with lots of space from the centre square and the others he kicked were just half / quarter chances that he took through sublime unmatchable skill. He would have kicked them on anyone.

Well two more years of pain folks, by which stage we will have about 10,000 members and be playing a few games on the Gold Coast, but we will then have lots of young guns that Don Pyke or John Longmire may be able to mould into a side. The 2004 performance was indeed an oddity. We won several games narrowly against sides who were barley trying. Never mind Franklin I would have loved to get Griffen in that draft. Franklin has got exceptional talent but not sure if his opportunist style will win finals. HAndy icing on the cake man.

I sat in front of the coaches box yesterday and cringed when I saw in the first quarter , every player in defence. Fev on the half back line chasing kicks and no sign of a cohensive plan.

No one to receive the ball even if it got past the centre.

Privately a few players have mention that hate the style of play they are being forced to play.

It seems when they ignore instructions and begin to play direct football, the place brightens up. Tanking is not an excuse for incompetence.

In the second half when they reverted to normal placings and played direct football they almost pulled it off.The incompetent game plan of the first half was too big to overcome, What could have been if they were coached to carry on from last week playing the same attacking football.

DP may have put the foundations in by creating a very young list, but enough is enough.

This team is desperate for coaching staff that want to put in extra hours with this group. I don't mean running them into the ground - I mean extra sessions on kicking/tackling/kick-ins/strategies (yes DP you can have multiple of these believe it or not!!!!!)

Someone mentioned that at 3qtr time in the freo game the players were told to forget the tags and just go after the footy. We won the qtr.

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Mordan,



Being human, is precisely why Carlton under Pagan has failed to get off the bottom of the ladder. Pagan has failed to understand the human personalities behind some of the players. If you're not sure how the game plan works and the other players in the team are not sure how the game plan works, then, the human mind enters the realm of confusion.

I think it's rather simplistic to claim that the players have no skills, poor decision-making etc. (which is true) but fail to understand why they are not improving. If Pagan says that the game is played 90% in the mind, then he's not getting through to them is he? If we are capitulating and have lost the game by the end of the first quarter, what does that show? It shows complete lack of mental strength, complete lack of motivation. Who's job is that? Is it not the coach?

I do not think that Pagan is a very shrewd psychologist, with his comments in the media always directed at the younger players - it seems like his only tactic is to berate them if they lose, and put a lid on it if they win. Pagan's lack of flexibility when dealing with the cattle at his disposal is appalling. Whilst some of the players are poorly skilled, why is there no remedial work done for them? Why are players lacking confidence? Is it because the coach has no confidence in them either?

Mordan, my reaction on the coaching issue is not without merit IMO - I personally think that we have a kids who are capable of playing AFL level football but who haven't had the confidence shown in them (other than Murphy and Kennedy - and even with the latter this is doubtful if we look at how much gametime he's gotten) to be able to feel as though they might actually be improving.

Pagan's continual talk about getting more elite talent into the club implies that the young players already there aren't elite (this maybe somewhat true) and aren't capable of being relied upon. It's poor people management, to the extent where it's reckless.

On Waite, he's always showed glimpses but it is because of this that we get frustrated with him. He hasn't had a great season (even before his knee injury, he had problems) - and as others have mentioned, seems to be show-ponying a bit. Someone has got to rein him in or we might as well see if any club might give up a decent pick. He also represents something that we have already, a marking forward. His stints in the midfield haven't been great, his disposal is questionable. As I asked, is it a player issue or is it a coaching issue? He is talented and I'd like to keep him but if trading him means we can get something valuable in an area we desperately need help in (like midfield), then he is expendable.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Thats all that anyone wants to see - player improvement and team development. We get glimpses of what the players are capable of and then nothing for weeks on end.

Team improvement and team confidence is what is sadly lacking and has been since Pagan arrived.

When we look at Andrew Walker and say what a great defender he has become we over look the real issue and the real reason he has become a defender.
When I look at AW burst through the pack with that explosive speed of his I straight away think we have another Judd here as the similarties are there. The only difference is Judd has always been the Hunted and AW has been turned into a Hunter . AW should be removed from half back and placed in the middle and be allowed to use what he has and that is pace to break the lines and deliver .

Its negative thinking and negative tactics to turn someone like AW into a defender . Sure he is good at it and has some impressive scalps to his name but AW would be good at any position and he is needed in the thick of it.

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They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I agree with what you are saying SB but until Tex gets his kicking right, he won't ever be midfield material.

How do you teach skills like kicking? Our guys know how to kick the ball, but cannot provide any accuracy. Does it come with confidence or technique?

The excessive hand-balling yesterday made me tear my hair out.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

Well, to be fair, the conext of the responses given was in regard to the game at hand, not an overall feeling as your post seems to suggest. And given that the team was able to add some respectability to the scoreboard one could argue that the players not only did want to change/improve, but did.

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Tex kicking looks bad because he is charging off the Half Back line at a million miles and hour then looks up and there are no targets so he tends to blaze . He needs to do that at the centre bounces when the targets and forward structure is in place

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They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I think the masses to which you refer just want our club to be honourable. I'm not sure they are setting targets for the number of wins.

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IMO that is a fantastic piece of constructive criticism.

I can accept that our skill level may be down due to a lack of confidence, delivered in part to a string of poor performances. But from what I can tell not a lot, should that be, not enough, is being done to redress our skill shortages on the training grounds.

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I'd sign up Betts, wouldn't bother with the other two, more dismal picks. Where's the wisdom in picking up Russell, in each game he has played he has absoultely squibbed. Fancy going up for a contested mark and holding up one arm whilst at the same time ducking your head hoping not to get cleaned up.

I'm afraid not much will come of this bloke, another houlihan in disguise.

Pagan was asked about this yesterday and said that before anyone can play in the midfield they have to learn how to play in defence. Otherwise we end up with unaccountable midfielders and we all know what we think of those.

I cannot believe some are still supporting our coaching panel.
What more must happen or be more obvious for you all to realise Pagan's time is well and truly up at Carlton?

PS.

Been happening all year.

You may agree or not, but don't you reckon that AW is being played in defence as part of his development? He's played 50 games. He hopefully has another 200+ ahead of him. There's plenty of elite midfielders that did an apprenticeship in defence (Ratten one example). Equally, there's plenty of elite midfielders that have played a lot of footy off half-back (McLeod one example).

My own theory is that AW will soon get the gigs we probably all want him to get, which is as you describe, but it all comes back to patience I reckon.

I'm a bit on the fence with Pagan to be honest, but after being able to listen in to a few of his press conferences in full on Fox Footy's Sunday coverage I'm not sure he deserves all the criticism he's copping. I think he is doing his best to develop our kids and his comments in his press conferences have alluded to this in recent weeks IMO.

Whether he's developing the kids in the best manner possible is another question I guess.

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