Why is it when ever I post a negative about Pagan there is a dozen or so poster who jump to his defence . When will people realise that we are going nowhere - thats right nowhere our results are no better than what they were 4 years ago. I posted earlier in this thread about Parramatta turning thier season around over night with a change of coach and attitude. We have had over 1200 over nights to turn our seasons around and it just doesn't happen . We cant keep going on this notion we are building for the future . Because when is the future you can use this for ever and ever the future never arrives . I've been hearing for the last 5 years we will be a force to be reckoned with in another 3 years I'm still hearing the same and if we keep down this rout in three years time it will be the same .

We played a team on Saturday who was full of kids had lost 5 or 6 in a row and we coming off a trip to Perth. we had just won against a top 4 side . That team was able to slip in to cruise control and roll us by 23 points with arguably almost our best 22.

We have problems big problems we are not coming along as a team we a going backwards . Its no good having a gun full forward kicking a 100 goals and coming last. Its no good have a gun midfielder winning a brownlow and coming last . They need to develop as a team and play for one and other . They are not doing it is not happening . You dont need high skills to tackle or sheppard or smother or put on a block for a fellow player or run - they are not doing the basics

This is the responsibility of the head coach - no one else - no excuses its his responsibility - not Libbas or Trout nor Smorgan Its Pagans

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Because they don't agree with you?

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

You cant keep making excuses for him - Time for excuses finished 2 years ago

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
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I didn't make an excuse - I simply held a different opinion.

If you read my post you'll see that I wrote this:



The problem I and many others have with many of your posts is that it appears that anything and everything that is wrong with the Carlton Football Club is Denis Pagan's fault. No-one else appears to have any responsibility for anything.

When you can actually debate an issue (such as the development of Andrew Walker) by looking at a number of variables rather than one (Pagan) then not only will the quality of your posting improve but others might actually take some of your drivel seriously.

Unfortunately you only seem to be able to manage "Pagan's shit - get rid of him".

I'm happy to criticize Pagan when I believe it's deserved but not when I believe it's not. That's fair. Laying the blame for everything at his feet isn't.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

I have a big problem with him playing down back...its not his best position....its only him covering for the inadequacies of others...and thats not development thats handballing responsibility.

Didnt recruit AW to turn him into a dour defender...ok Hodge plays down back for the Hawks but its the sweeper/creator role...
Wonder if Kerr, Judd, Cousins etc played at FB or Riccuito, Buckley, Voss etc when they were learning the trade..I dont remember it......

I want him in the midfield with Simpson, Blackwell etc....promote Flint and groom him as your negative tagger....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
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- Conor Gillen

Well said GWS.

I don't really hold a definite opinion on Pagan either way, for or against, but you can't look at Andrew Walker and say he isn't a much better player now than 15 months ago.

Natural development and maturing plays a large part in it, but credit also must go to Pagan.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Oh it's Pagan's fault? I thought it was because we needed to "win" a few more draft picks. This is very confusing. Just who is to blame … it must all be down to one person surely?!

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He is a better dour defender....the AW in his first game who had 26 possies, thrilled us with his run and standing on the back of packs trying to take speccies has left the building....
I'm not a fan of using players to cover holes...part of our problem is we never get the right players for the right positions...we are always trying to cheat and turn players into something they are not....jack of all trades, master of none theory.....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Credit for what turning a bloke who could be a champion midfielder into a defender .

We dont know how good Walker could be because he hasn't been given the chance to prove it.

Tell me can you see Josh bagging 6 against the Hawks this time next year like Franklin did to us . Not likely the way he is being handled at the moment - Josh if his lucky by round 19 might be playing a full 120 minutes if Pagan has anything to do with it

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Disapointing loss again.....

What are we doing playin half a game of footy.

In my view french has got to go.. And a quick as possible... But unfortunatly thats not all our problems. The problem is that there is too many to list.

But having said that, there better than they were at this point last year and we have the likes of Murphy, Kennedy, and all those other younger blokes in the two's playin solid games every week, plus our top picks in the draft this year to strengthen the side next year...

Sorry Rule No 1 in life - If your in charge it is your fault

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

See the question I asked you in my first post. Do you remember Walker struggling while he was playing as a midfielder early last year? His turnaround has come since he started getting tagging roles and then to defence this season.

He'll eventually be sent back to the midfield as a more complete player. We'll be amazed again at the player he is. Some of us are unbiased enough to give some credit to Pagan....some of us will remain blinded.

Elwood, I agree he's not always getting ideal matchups, but he will benefit from all of this. Even if its only to enjoy the freedom of being away from the defence.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

I'm sure he'll get his time in the middle before too long Elwood but I'm glad he's being giving specific tasks and not being let loose in the way that a guy like Camporeale was. That bloke had no defensive game at all. Walker's still young and has a long career in front of him.

I'd love to see him unleashed some time soon but have no problem with the current method. The problem yesterday when he was on Williams was that he shouldn't be playing on leading forwards. It's not what he'll be doing in 2-3 years and it's a waste. If you want to blame Pagan for that go for it.

That's a different issue to whether he should play negating run-with roles though.

I would have put him on Mitchell and told him to squash him.

But that's just me.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

sack Pagan now.

Hawthorn is a young team going somewhere. Carlton is going nowhere.

Yep those Hawks just beat the bottom side by 23 points after losing about six in a row.

They're going somewhere - we're [REDACTED].

Last week we beat a top 4 side.

Good to see some balance around here.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

Well said GWS. My brother thought our win against the Dees was an aberration but didn't - we just were not switched on in the first half and that is why we lost.

And some woeful kicking as well and some really bad match ups - McGrath on Buddy!

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

I still think we're pretty crap DUC but I don't think the Hawks are miles in front of us. A few months ago people were laughing at Clarkson. Buddy Franklin starts to play well, they win a game and suddenly Clarkson's a genius.

At the start of the year I said I didn't care about the results from particular games and that I was more interested in the development of individuals and the list in general.

So far this year I'm really pleased with the progress of many of our young players. Given more experience, another pre-season and additional strength work I'm hopeful about the next couple of years.

There's still a long way to go but if you look at the development of Kade Simpson this year as an example of that development along with Murphy, Setanta, Walker, etc etc etc there's a fair bit to be pleased with.

I think it's possible to make an argument that we've been going backwards at times over the last few years but I don't believe that's the case this year.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

good to get a bit of balance- whose to say next year instead of Franklin it is kennedy who performs so we win or murphy starring
Agree we are crap but there is light at the end of the tunnel and it is better than last year
The lack of intensity for the first half cost us big time and only had to be able to show intensity of week before and had a real chance
I still think if French had of kicked that goal you could have smelt the hawthorn fear from the grandstand at about 16 minute mark - it was a double goal turnaround with Franklin slotting one straight from the kick out
Beaten by a better side on the day - not much better but still better

get real. Hawthorn smashed Carlton when the game was there to be won.
There is a huge difference between being competitive in a game and kicking 6 goals to none in junk time.

Carlton are junk time specialists and the final margins have flattered them. What has never been in doubt was the result. Every club in the league (except maybe Melbourne ) has Carltons measure. And if you think that last weeks win against Melbourne wasn't an abberation, then remember we beat them by 23 points in round 1. and look how much we've improved since then :rolleyes:

The club had 4 wins last season and has 3 wins this season. 2 wooden spoons for Pagan and 3 wooden spoons in 5 years is a @#$%&! disgrace and equal to some of the worst sides/eras ever put on a football field.

Pagan is going nowhere with this group and the sooner he is gone the better.

Um,I can remember every game he has played(and have them on tape),I cannot recall him being selected to play in the midfield(or maybe you can define or, re-define,mid-field for me