Good ol' boy dannyboy wrote


I don't know, as none of us are privy to the details that culminates to a decision. But I will stick my neck out (unwillingly, and, out of repsect to you danny)...

there has to be a positve and a negative in their summation (as with anything), and I read into it withour prejudice....and suggest...that perhaps the positives considered by the board being:

a link to the past success as a link to what we traditionally uphold as a value.

a cultural position that a Carlton great committed to the club will be considered worth preserving for that last 'pound of flesh' (ala Buckley, Hird, Archer).. given that this beast of a man is a bigger and better than a specualtive incling/ hunch that selection 69 may be better, and a definite start up in the first 22 in '07 or '08 or '09...

that the young kids developing and the new kids picked for us in 2007 have a person that exemplfies professionalism, dedication and success from him (given he started as an athlete and they have the advantage of starting as a footballer). See what you can become...and he's only human.

He may be able to be just a footballer at $250K offering good value rather than be a $1M man at 33, and not subjected to the expectation to match his performance with the price tag.

this guy bleeds the navy blue and wants to give the club every last ounce of his ability to move the club forward to the position he was privy starting at (at the top)

I don't know DB but I know how to find positives and negatives in any situation, but as every other human on earth, I can't give you the outcome....that's a wait and see proposition....2007.

Dannyboy wrote



Refer to the above, as it's the same question as the above. Can I subject the taunt of tautology to a question? You agree and accept but you're intrigued!!??!! wow...that's too hard to comprehend for me.

Well clutch my pearls..what can I say to that but.."spika da english, well versed man".

What positives do you think may have influenced the board DB?
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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Kouta will do no different next year on 300k for the kids than he did in the last few years.

BUT.. the money we spent for him outside of the salary cap could have been used on coaches to improve skills and everything else.

Pagan and the Board know very little .. thats why were a rabble.

That 150k that goes to Kouta outside of the salary cap should have been used to develop our kids with intent.

So i dont want to hear that we have NO MONEY...!!!

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Synbad wrote


Perhaps that 150K had the intent to develop the kids far and above the board or Pagan are capable of duplicating.

Is it everyone's fault who is associated with Carlton in 2006 that we are in the position we are in, or, is this a result of mistakes of the past by previous employees/ board members/ satirists and the AFL Commission.

Find the culprit, and channel your frustrations to the right body....TIP for you...Kouta's not it....he just agreed to what was offered to him.

Synbad


As for outstanding contracts not being signed off, do you know that they are not being considered? Enlighten me.

I believe in one step at a time, otherwise it becomes too abstract to commit to 3 contracts/ managers at a time. Have you ever told a girlfriend that you can only be in one place at a time? I have. It's impossible to be in 3 [positions] simultaneously.

Sybad wrote


I thought we were rebuilding, that being the case after the Elliot era when it was considered that Carlton never rebuild. Mate, you're living in the past. A long time ago.

Anyway, back to the theme of the thread...Kouta.

Kouta, you've been here a long time, you've served us well, you know what it took for us to be at the top in your time, and experienced the lows, now, given it is still your time, let the hands of time turn around to 12 o'clock at see the full circle through...pass on your wisdom to the young ones and show them the way on and off the field. They're good kids and they believe in their future with Carlton....take them (and us) back onto the path of glory.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Very true Synbad what would Pagan know, after all you attend the ocassional training session preaching the same crap, trade Whitnall, Kouta is doing nothing for the club.

GET OVER IT

You are the type of guy that would win division one and still complain because you have to share twenty million with another person. You are so booring, you add nothing but negativity on this site.

Tell me, you are about my age, do you remember what the late seventies, eighties and nineties were like following the greatest club in the land??? yes we are struggling, making mistakes BUT for &%% sake support the club and stop bagging EVERTHING the club does.

Mrs Cax wrote;

I've been quietly contemplating that Mrs Caz & I believe that I provided an answer to GWS well before your post appeared. I tried to start a positive post re Kouta, again the usual suspects tried to highjack the post. My post history shows I don't blow up for no reason. In fact, I dont believe that I've ever done so before.

The "positive" in the thread was about Kouta, not a love in on TC.

Anyway, I know that it must be hard to be all things to all people all of the time, but surely this one had taken care of itself well before you became involved?

"Inviting naysayers in for a tussle" - if that is what you think I add to TC then farewell.

I apologise if you feel that I have tread on the toes of some of the regular contributors, however, I stand by what I did. I believe that Kouta should not be trashed as he has been on Talking Carlton. If TC is all about trashing Carlton champions then I guess that I'll depart.

I think that Carlton made the correct decision in resiging Kouta & am happy to stand by that opinion.

regards

Ockham

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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

the agreement from was the Kouta may play better football but that actually doesn't interest me. What interests me is what the board were thinking.

What interests me is your idea that Kouta connects back to the past - I agree.

To JE

To contracts way overblown to the point we cheated.

to a great club that totally lost the plot

to the days when we chose our own kids and ignored the draft

Plus

he plays unaccountable football - is this what Denis wants to show the kids? How it hurts a side to have players that do not man up (again this is not a fault of Kouta's except in so much as his legs are basically shot)

See, I struggle to actually see what Kouta does offer the club in symbolism off the field or leadership/ability on it.

You state he would be in our best the next 3 years - if that is the case then this club is [REDACTED] and going nowhere. He is too slow for this game.


It is not the pick that he affects but the minutes the kids spend on the ground. Now I understand the need to balance their time with experienced bodies/minds but surely we also need to start developing the next team.

We need to strip off the past faces of the old admin and start showing our future, start letting them run the show. To me that would mean Kouta on and off the bench and if he has bad games back to the Bullants - and to me that would be wrong. I do not think we have a side capable of carrying Kouta if we wish to improve - so that would mean what, leaving him behind - is that a good thing? I think not.

Strong clubs make powerful decisions without sentiment - this reeks of the opposite - this reeks of the kind of decision a JE board would make - and I guess you could fine positives in his decisons too, mind you the negatives outweighed them!

As for you guessing, sorry but the way you stated your post I read it that you had inside info and why the club chose the outcome they did. It was that info I was curious about.

Its this choice that has me baffled - I am searching for signs that tell me to vote for this board, signs that tell me this board is progressive, has a grip on our situation, is re-ivigorating the club.

To me the Kouta decision reeks of a Board clinging to a great player's shirt tails and I do not believe his legs have the strength to carry them.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

They were worried Sheedy was going to pounce on him!

Ockam, good post, well done.

Synbad, it's a "positive" post i.e. negative comments go elsewehere.

You ask why why do we neeed a positive post if it's so great that Kouta's signed on, well because like most things in life, people have a difference of opinion ...fair enough, point taken ... but there's a thread about a billion miles long criticizing Kouta, this thread is for those who have something positive to say, thus the title.

And for what it's worth, speak to a couple of the younger players and ask them how much taller they walk on the field when Kouta's out there, how much of a buzz they get out of playing with a legend ... that's an important part of a young players development. It's passing on the tradition of a great club, a link to the past, an on field connection to champions like Kernahan and Sos and Braddles etc...these are the intangibles that define a footy club. Go and speak to the kids coming through, ask them how they feel when they play alongside Kouta.

It's very naive to say, yeah he was a legend, but now he's got nothing to offer. Newsflash, we're not banging on the premiership door right now, the sacrifice of playing Kouta even though he may not be in the top 10 or so players is not so great. That crap about Kouta keeping a developing player out of the team is baseless. Let Hartlett, Bower etc earn their selection, it shouldn't be too hard, I mean we're talking about a team so flush with talent that it's found room to select the likes of Mclaren 13 times this year, Sporn (7 games), Teague (6 games) and Livingston (5 games).

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Number 17 - come on down!

DB wrote


Well put DB, regardless of the fact you lost me on the 3 years bit. It's up to the coach now to see if he can utilize him to best effect in 2007. It is also Kouta's responsibility to make something of this opportunity. Like all things if it works great, if it doesn't...move forward.

One decision, the Kouta decision is not a smart way to judge a board, as they make many decisions. You have to look at all of them and weigh it up come election. One thing that's for sure though, regardless of who you vote for, the list is the list and there's not much more that you can do with such a young list than wait for the fruit to show its stuff.

I haven't voted for the board since Ian Rice won back in 1979. That was it for me. The suits took over. I barrack for CFC, not the 'self interested' board. And to me one more year of Kouta will not make or break the club, it can only serve a purpose, and I'll clutch onto anything that will help the kids at the moment....and as for a ONE year contract...it's only a moment in time. My expectations are not huge ala 2000 form, so I'm not going to be too disappointed if he doesn't make the first 22....that's his chice, and he has to wear that.

As for the minutes the kids spend on the ground; when Kouta was out with the hand, were you satisfied with the minutes the kids got on the ground?....maybe they are too young for it, maybe the coach didn't make the right choice, maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, maybe that's football, maybe that's life. It's just a moment in time.

You stated earlier on that we were..."once the great club....", that's your opinion. I still believe that we are still a great club, with a great history, and that counts for me, and will continue to be, and we will rise....I know we will. I also know (without inside information) that the current board will not be the same come 2008-2010 when we are back in the top bracket....so who gives a shit about whose there today whilst we are rebuilding? I don't. I accepted it was a 5 year sentence, end of 2002. Enjoy the ride.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Teddy wrote


Great stuff Teddy.

Hey Ockham's Razor...........great thread, and you have every right to feel the way you do....you said nothing untoward....and if this site is one for the boys or "regulars" and you have to worry about toes being trodden on...I'd like to say I'm outta here too....but don't do it...stick to your guns....I don't know what Mrs Caz role is in all of this, but she was just asking a question....I can't find a reason for you to apologise...she isn't asking for one....the title of the thread to some of us is obvious...and the comments of some regarding Kouta in a thread that is specifically focussed on positiveness, I too find offensive; but that's democracy. That's the reason for you to not farewell us...stay put and keep this site balanced, regardless of who owns the convention of TC; I find your input stimulating.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

It's very interesting what you can see when you take the blinkers off!

Great post Ted, unfortunatley when a great team struggles some can only see the negatives in EVERYTHING.

I'm with you on this one. The perception of moving forward - especially coming on top of Allison's outburst - has been muddied by the re-signing of Kouta. It smacks of business as usual - short on vision and firm decision making ability.

I would like to know how exactly Kouta's re-signing fits into the board's future vision. Most posters here have nothing against Kouta and naturally wish him all the best but they would also agree that his form this year (and especially on the eve of his signing) has been less than good. At this stage of his career, it's safe to assume it's not going to get any better and perhaps could be worse (unless he's been playing with injuries).

Where will Kouta fit into our structure next year? Obviously his strength and experience would still be handy in the mids but there's questions over whether he can sustain long periods in the guts and even if he can, there's the need to give a big slab of that time to developing our youngsters. Which leaves the forward line where we have tall forwards coming out of our arse (some of whom still need a fair bit of development). Given there's a great reluctance to try any of our young forwards down back, you'd have to ask where Kouta will fit in.

And then there's Smorgan's interview of a few weeks ago where he said everything footy is on the review table until the end of the year, including Pagan (who has a contract). Why is Kouta, who had no contract and question marks over his form, the exception? Why the rush to sign him up especially as this would reduce our flexibility in the trade period? The perception is that we have no real plan or vision.

Then there's the question of team/MC unity and where Kouta fits in. It may be only smoke but Kouta and Fev may have differences - Fev throws his hat in the captaincy ring only days after Kouta nominated Lance or Stevo for the role; Fev's very unprofessional TV comments on Kouta's contract and, according to the radio, the two players had words during the Hawks match. It may be just my imagination running wild (the default condition for Carlton fans these days) and no way would I advocated not re-signing Kouta based solely on this issue but in the big scheme, these things should be included in calculations about our future.

Despite Pagan positioning himself as a prime mover behind Kouta's re-signing, rumours of a poor relationship between the two have persisted since 2003. There's no chance I'd be sacking Kouta because of this - in fact, I'd sign Kouta for 10 years if it meant Pagan going. But once again the political undertows within the footy group have to be considered.

And if Pagan is the prime mover and the board have followed his advice on this, you'd have to wonder once again about Smorgan's football dept review statements - why is Pagan making important decisions (or having crucial input into decisions) if everything's up for review at the end of the year? If true, then it means two things - another poor decision by Pagan, and, he's staying on.

All this doesn't mean the board don't have a vision - they may have a very cunning one - but we supporters aren't seeing it yet. I just hope it's the same as mine - after four years of struggling in quicksand, I want dry land and blue skies ahead. And that means a new coach, new assistants and the impetus of a first pick, a PP and a few other tasties. Altho I've accepted it now, for me, Kouta didn't fit into this new vision.

I just hope something positive and inspiring happens soon - this camel's back only has room for a few more straws....

I think that's waht I've been trying to say.

As for you OR don't you dare! I look forward to each and every one of your posts - besides when I run I am counting on your vote to get me over the line

As for the Board - the problem is they ar enot inspiring me on all fronts at the moment. and believe me after the past 3 or so years - IWANT TO BE INSPIRED!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Ok so he is playing in 07.If he isnt in the best 22 Ockhman then he plays with an ants symbol on his footy jumper.And with a number of young guys not tried yet and some new gun youngens into the side Kouta may find himself out of the team.As Synbad said beautifully Lappin was dropped and he has been better than Kouta.Of course Kouta wont be dropped because the club is pissweak in their decision making.

Lappin was going a lot worse than Kouta.

Synbad was wrong.

Agreed... Lappin was certainly going worse...

About 4 or 5 weeks in a row he was averaging about 8 touches...

Lappin needed to go back to the 2's and as a result he has freshened up...

Kouta would still be averaging about 14 touches this year... What do we expect from a 33yo...?

Let him play out one more year next year... He'll be very handy mixing in between forward line and midfield next year...

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Corinthians 9:6- 8

Lappin's stats this season

Koutoufides' stats this season

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

Lappin can cover the ground.

Kouta cant.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Why would i support stuff blindly???

If the club was doing everything very well we wouldnt be that bad in every aspect of the day to day goings of the footy club on and off the field...
would we???

I can support all the stupidity... because there is heaps of it... but why should i???

Im not a nuff nuff....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.