I think all up we lost out on about 5 draft picks so you chop our worst 5 players and the list looks a lot more promising. The loss of those picks cannot be underestimated, it's nearly a quarter of a side.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

As far as 'on field' performance goes I'm not really sure what more you could have expected. I don't think Pagan is a fantastic coach anymore but I see little point replacing him. We do have 'adequate' talent aged 18-21, the problem is obviously the draft penalties and our pathetic recruiting before then. Recycled players just don't cut it. We are going about things the right way finishing bottom this year, we need talent into the club and it is the only way to do it. Not trading Whitnall last year was just another example of the club not having the balls to do what is required - you hear the arguments 'the team would fall apart' blah blah blah, well we are going to finish last again with tubby having played just about every game.

I would love the club just once in my lifetime to be proactive for a change and organise a trade like:
Collingwood -> Stevens
Port -> Tarrant + Pick 19
Carlton -> Pick 6

But I know there is absolutely no chance of something like this happening. More likely than not we will win 6 or 7 games next year and finish in no mans land. It would be fantastic to bottom out properly and grab the first two picks in the draft, or picks one and three in 2007 and build a platform for a premiership. Instead we will do what the 'system' wants us to do and just end up with a 'competitive' list. Who knows in a few years we might sneak into the top four and play in a few big games.

You would have thought in 2003 with an average losing margin of 10 goals for the second half of the season, we would have sat down and said 'no more short cuts' but of course we had to try and 'cheat' again. Well now we are in another 'future defining moment' on how we approach 2007. For me it's not a question of 'how long do you want to be down the bottom?' it's a question of 'how high do you want to go?'

Sorry but the draft penalties are the least of our problems.
Denis likes to play the victim card to make excuses but if you look at the 02/03 draft period, relatively Carlton performed as well as most.

The AFL took pity on us and let us keep Barnaby French.
We also took Kade Simpson, Brad Fisher Nick Stevens, Heath Scotland, Eddie Betts, Andrew Carrazzo, Adam Bentick and Andrew Walker.
Probably 3 of the top 5 in this years B&F and 9 regular senior players!

Not bad for excluded draft periods.

List management and our lack of courage to fully embrace youth is our biggest downfall.
Blaming draft sanctions is only swallowing the victim mentality Denis peddles.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Carlton God.... did you get married or start a family in the last year?

Whats your story? You seem a lot more "measured" these days. I'm finding myself thinking you don't go far enough these days

Pagan is pathetic and is the obvious weakest link

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Love Cricket? Love me

What did I expect?

Well after 5 years of being at or near the bottom and 2004 / 2005 with full list access I expected to really want to turn up to Bullants matches to see the future of the Carlton Football Club, if not on the field for the Seniors. Instead I read of our 23-25 year olds being VFL demigods by performing OK at that level and depriving our young kids - mostly rookies rather than lots of Picks 50-70 say (you can argue that they are similar 'rankings' but a Pick 60 is necessarily earlier in order) - of their chance to perform.

The Bullants should be full of 19-21 year olds taken with whatever picks we could muster from trades, from delistings, from brown paper bags...

If the question was 'What did you expect...given the list that we took into the season?' then I'd agree, I couldn't expect much more. But if the question is 'What did you expect from where we could have been?', well....

Why do we seem to continually go into seasons with a quarter of our list not up to the task?

And further, why do we celebrate having a strong VFL performance when all it does is highlight the real weakness of our ways?

Well put LB. In response I'd say Yes, we have some good signs but after 5 years of being losers shouldn't we be more advanced than that? Shouldn't we be like Richmond - and do you know how much that hurts to say - in that we have 3 young back pocket players coming through to fix up their defence (freeing guys to play midfield) Imagine having Player X and Y, 2 young gun mids, learning the ropes as defenders, freeing up Walker, Simmo (when he's back) and even Carrots? I'm sick of these guys having to tag! They should be free to run and create! Where are our replacements?

And as for being close to it, lets not overestimate it - all I do is write for the Club as a hobby. I get just as marginalised and sidelined with my writing as you guys do with your complaint emails!

I agree the kids should be given more of a go both in the carlton team and the Bullants seniors.

I also think we have not traded for draft picks anywhere near as hard as we needed to.

But I think their is promise there. I think the kids will get better but without a top end we will struggle for three years yet.

The change the the rules this year is another smack in the gob. Murph Kennedy last year
Gibbs Hansen this year and thats two A grade Midfielders and your CHB CHF


I think, sadly, Synners is right regard to the PAD - we have been shite with the power that should have given us - Maclaren. pffft. There are times when denis shows he is in the past. WFor @#$%&!'s sake draft some @#$%&! ruckmen!!!!

I have no reason to want Denis sacked because I would prefer the board sacked. This to me is the saddest part of the problem. I do feel the list is being improved. I see nothing improving off field. with how this club is run - fix that then ditch Denis if we must (though fix that and Denis might just lift his game).

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I have been happy enough with what I have seen in the second half of the year to give Pagan more time. The young guys seem to be playing for him and he seems to have adapted more to the modern game plan - In 2003 no one wanted Pagan gone more than me. I'm sure we could have pinched a couple more wins in the second half of the year but clogging the forward line with Kouta, Fevola, Waite, Fisher, French for example in the second quarter against Richmond, has given me hope that Pagan is doing what is required to maximise our draft position this year. The only alternative is to try a rookie coach and to be honest I'm not sure they are going to do much better, it's not like an Eade, Roos or Craig are out of contract and are available.

I'm with BV and not sold on our woes purely being the loss of draft picks and agree with his theory of poor list management and the ignoring of youth...

Daniel Wells is a good player but he aint no Daniel Kerr...in my opinion Aaron Davey taken for nothing is better than Wells.
Brendon Goddard is a good footballer but he aint no Mark Riccuito or Nathan Buckley...

Be nice to have both of them but overall I dont think Daniel Wells has lifted the Kanagroos to anywhere special and while Goddard is a emerging type of Glen Archer he isnt a matchwinner...

Losing draft picks is seen as a nice out for our football dept and the club overall....we didnt embrace the draft, cheated the cap and failed to see youth as the future ..always looking for the easy way out....we could always attract and pay for whateva talent we wanted ...guess what..no one wants to come to play for us of any note anymore and we cant pay them anyway....the only players interested are young kids wanting a game and hasbeens looking for a retirement cheque ...

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

LMAO! Supports Pagan because of his inability to win games.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

I'm not happy with finishing bottom but I think our kids are being brought along quite well. I think there is hope for the future and if we can add at least 3 more very good players to the team we will start the match back up the ladder.

I don't think we have been list tanking but if you look at our list we have taken a gamble on some players. Teague won a best and fairest Prender has played some very servicable games as has Bannister Sporn etc but not on a consistent basis. It seems that the coach and MC have rebuilt just about the whole list from scratch and we now have only about 11 players left from 4 years ago and more of them to go this year.

Our young blokes didn't set the world on fire initially but they are improving. Some are coming along faster than others but there are signs. Simpson didn't have a touch in his first 3 matches. Russsell made some mistakes and the pace and pressure caught him out but he'll come back stronger and better. Carlos got caught watching the play and not his opponent at first. Fisher and Betts had the spark but not the stamina and flashed in and out. Bentick has his good days and some not so good. Blackwell was pushed off the ball.

Our team has a few holes but if you look at it I think we are building a side for the next few years.
Carlos 23 Thornton 23 Walker 20 Simpson 22 Bentick 21 Russell 20 Fisher 22 Kennedy 19 Waite 23 Betts 20 Murphy 19 Blackwell 20 McLaren 24 plus some we haven't seen yet in Raso Hartlett Bower Edwards Flint Jackson as the youngsters. Then you can add Whitnall Scotland Stevens Fevola as the over 25's.

well only an idiot would want to win games considering where our list is at.

For the record I don't blame our situation purely on the loss of draft picks. In fact in 2003 and 2004 I didn't even accept it as an excuse. I've made it no secret here on what I think about our current coach and his methods but we're still 4 or 5 quality young players worse off than we would have been.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

your opinion doesn't really interest me.

That's fine but I'm actually interested in how old you were when you were dropped on your head you poor thing?

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

In answer to your original post Molsey, I reckon I keep hope because I can't see that any retirements in the near future will substantially hurt the team. We've got some players coming in that have been on our list for a year or two, and the possibility of players like Jackson/Flint coming through in 2007/2008. Add in some high picks this year and hopefully one or two ready made players, and some more experience to the Russells, Blackwells, etc and Murphy and Kennedy back in after a full preseason.

I really believe we've bottomed out, and that we will see some improvement from here on. It might be slow, and we'll get our arses kicked sometimes, but i think we'll start moving forward at a consistent rate now.

I don't think the club does. Some die hard supporters do but I don't think the club is that naive.

It is more the fact that the club has underestimated the ability to rebuild by fully embracing the draft. To my mind a young 'project' player with a big upside is almost always a better option than an older, so called, 'proven' player with twice as many question marks. At least with the former option you are having a go at rebuilding for the future. The alternative is nothing so much as damage control.

The only 'solace' I can offer is the fact that I have seen a big turn-around in the attitude of fans and hopefully the club as well.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Despite probably finishing last there has been improvement from last year.We have been more competitive overall and with the new additions,improvement in the youngsters etc I can see us improving again in 2007.

Hopefuly at the end of 07 Kouta,Lappin and French will give it away and that will place stronger emphasis on the youngsters to assume greater leadership responsibilities. The coaching staff will probably be different in 07 as well.

Pagan will stay on but his assisstant makeup will be different.He has the power to retain one of his choice. Like many at TC i disagree with his methods and his lack of faith in the youngsters.If we dont show the improvement we should have in 07 then DP will be gone.

Looking at the Tigers game I reckon we are about 8 players short of a good side.We are still too slow we need a mobile ruckman (Aisake?) and our defence needs more run and strength(Hartlett,Bower) Things can turn around quickly.Murphy and Kennedy look the goods.A pity they got injured because IMO we may have squezzed a couple more wins out of the season.

I think finally in 07 we wil start the road to success.And it is a big year for DP because finally he will be truly accountable.

The Club logic being one of safety in the so-called 'proven' player rather than risk the 'project' player...meaning that we don't overestimate the quality of the list but rather prefer not to be (or seen to be) taking too many risks? (Seem happy to be seen to be taking some risks in Setanta, Raso, Bryan etc. but not over the top?)

Good point.

Are you referring to the later picks of the 2003 National Draft

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch