'No, not really' applied to the question of whether the statement was too simplistic. Therefore I was agreeing it wasn't too simplistic. No one has suggested recruiters don't have to live with the failure of their decisions. It was a point about whether you can say it was down to not enough research or whether you live on the punts you take based on what info you have in front of you.

It remains a travesty that this is the only draft we embraced (or appeared to).

So much has been mentioned about Livo .I think he has been turned completely into a defence player.Another classic example of players at our club who have been tryed in one position only.I remember in 2002 or 2003 a game at the MCG where Livo played forward and did Ok for a young player.He probably wasnt pick 4 material but our club has knocked any creativity out of him. Its the same with Fisher and Waite who should be given a go in defence.We havent experimented enough with our players in the last 5 years.

Yer exactly! Pagan destroys most of our player's confidence so they end up loosing there creativity....eg we should be telling Russell to back himself because he has the speed to do so. Russell looks lost because Russels instructions were probably "don’t flower up" and that’s after being on the bench for a half a game.

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"Dont count the games, make the games count"

Pagan did talk about trying Waite in defence at some stage. He tried Fev at full back once.

Yes...

Well we have had some success with the later picks.

Can anyone track down the 2000 draft order for me? Would be interesting to see.

About the Burgoyne thing...I still think you should draft whoever you think is the better player...play hard ball if he decides he wants to go home and get something decent.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

Nahh...I don't think so.

If that is the way the youngens are treated then why don't they all @#$%&! up?

I heard Russell interviewed on club corner and he struck me as a bit of a thinker who tends to over analyse things ....It's not going to happen for him untill he settles down a bit...maybe when he gets older.

That's what I think anyway....

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

TBM....I've got the 2000 Draft in a Book....it would make you cry to see all of the good players that followed Livo at 4 and Sporn at 11.

Our recruiting has been pathetic and unimaginative.

There's a great article by Damien Barrett in today's Sun, about the brilliant Rookie Draft picks that have turned into gold for Adelaide, West Coast and Fremantle.

Here it is: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 42,00.html

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Damian Barrett is a crap journalist and any clown on the internet could have written that article doing two minutes of research.

Why didn't he point out that the Dogs, Demons drafted young guns such as Cooney, Mclean, Ray and Sylvia ahead of Ryan Murphy?

The Dockers drafted Dunn 9 selections ahead of Mundy yet he thinks they made the right calls in that draft.

Its a pretty easy article to write - trawl over a draft list and rate the players in hindsight - of course some clubs got it wrong - he doesn't mention the players we have picked up in the Rookie Draft over the past few years.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Love your avatar Warbs..

Juzz and AGRO...It's still a valid article though.

We really need to get with the times. I suppose the interstate clubs have only had the current system to learn from and adapt to whereas the Carltons and Essendons have had their success from the past and that is still where we are stuck so to speak.

It's just a bit more evidence that it isn't entirely the coaches fault it's the decisions that we make as a club.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

Elwood the CFC recruiting staff was completely revamped prior to the 2004 draft so you got your wish. More revamping has gone on at the start of 2006.

The pre/post 2004 CFC recruiting group is like chalk and cheese.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

I understand where you are coming from... and I don’t think Pagan actually tells the younger brigade "Don’t F#$K up"

The point I was trying to give was that Pagan doesn’t really give these younger players like Russell, Smith a role to play in the team. When they are on the field, they are played on and off the bench, and are really just plugging in gaps and making up the numbers.

These players should be given a role so they can earn the trust from the coaching staff. IMO the coaches don’t give them a chance to settle and earn a position because they play 20% of the game.

There seems to be no faith in these younger players... I saw it so many times last season, where a younger player who made a mistake was dragged automatically and was put on the bench for an extended period of time.

I’m sure these players would know if they made a mistake or not. I think they would learn more if they were backed by the coaching staff, and the playing group to forget about the past mistake, but also learn from it, and do better next time the player is around the ball; Rather than being punished promptly and having to sit on the bench and think more about the previous mistake.

We want our younger players to add a spark, back themselves, take runs, and be given a role to play in the team. If they are continually benched they won’t want to take risks because they are scared to be benched or dropped...

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"Dont count the games, make the games count"

I agree 100% there. It frustrates me a whole heap but I sorta just let it slide as I assume that Pagan and co know what they are doing...or at least know more than I do.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

If you look at the garbage he has written about Carlton you'll agree that he's a terrrible journo.

Why haven't the Eagles, Dockers, etc. spotted quality picks such as Betts, Davey, Thornton, Morris, Boyd or Jolly who were drafted by Vic clubs outside the draft?

The fact the AFL have only bothered to fund a full rookie list is an important point and shows that it isn't a level playing field.

Try this link mate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_AFL_Draft

Why have you only analysed Livo?

If you just judge from the 2000 draft then it does seem insignificant. The fact that we have generally mistreated the drafting system has left even more of an impact on our list.

However, if history can judge some coaches, players and administration poorly then why not recruiters? It is not really the effort put in by the recruiters that I am questioning but rather the judgment. If it is wrong to pick older players in some situations then why isn't it wrong for a club to recruit particular types of kids?

What I was trying to say in my last post was that the needs of a particular club goes beyond the mere fact that they don’t have a CHB, are a bit on the slow side and lack leadership etc.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

This is close enough to me.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Cazz - can I put forward the theory that Shane O'Sullivan is unfairly maligned on this forum and by Carlton supporters in general.

My take on it (and I could be wrong ) is that where O'Sullivan has been given free rain to pick the player he recommend (in particular late picks - Houlihan, Simpson, Fisher) he does get it right, although he does get it wrong eg Sporn (but then a lot of recruiters dont have 100% track record).

The problem when O'Sullivan was in charge of recruiting a lot of his recommendations were rejected by the Parkin philosophy of "give me strong mature bodies or we are looking for a particular type of player" rather than selecting the next best available player.

Is this a fair analysis???

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

hhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Ich bein ein Carltonian

Tah ACHILLES

Twas a talented bunch of 2000...

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger