Libba would have won by the length of the Flemington straight if he didn't miss the last 4 games with a knee injury. This was back in his "ball winning" days, when he would average 30 possessions and 7 tackles a week. Had a massive year. Besides, Libba winning stopped Graeme Wright from winning

I'll give you Brad Hardie. If stats were as detailed back them as they are now, we would know that Hardie conceded at least 3 goals a game to his direct opponent every week because, despite being very creative off the back pocket, he was so loose. He actually was awarded BOG for WA in a state of origin game despite his direct opponenets, Royal and Weightman, kicking 9 goals on him for the game! I guess that is why Malthouse was less than emanoured with Hardie late in season 1986.

As for Woewoful winning in 2000, there is a list a mile long of other more worthy winners that year. West did a "Williams" in no less than 3 games, gathering 35+ possessions in these games and not registering a single vote - one of these games was the Hudghton "crying game", which West completely dominated, gathering 40 possessions. Just seeing the names West, Kouta and Buckley directly behind Woewoful makes a mockery of the Brownlow that year. Woey's lucky that Stephen Powell made him look so good in 2000, that and the solarium, copious bottles of baby oil and a healthy dose of peroxide.

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"You've got no fear of The Underdog, that's why you will not survive"
- Spoon, 2007
- Western Bulldogs, 2016

greg is not complaining about not getting votes for his game, he is complaining because 1 field umpire thought he deserved 3 and the other didnt even listen to him he asked him if he made his job any easier and they didnt consult, in afl rules you must consult before giving a vote and diesel has a fair point to be arguing for it, if the same thing happened to scott west wouldnt blame him for trying to get back what's his but if the umpires consult and dont give you votes (which is what happened in west's case) then you have to accept that.

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Last edited by true_blue3 on Mon Sep 26, 1981 5:07 pm; edited 92 times in total

I agree with your point.


At the end of the day Diesel Williams is a fighter.

He fought with every ounce of his being to be an afl footballer, and then he fought with every ounce to be the best.

Some people believe he should just roll over cause it will cause too many waves... tall poppy syndrome me thinks.

An injustice has been done - much like when Williams got 9 weeks for touching an umpire.

Diesel - because he was so good - had to be brought down a peg or two... typical tall poppy syndrome and that umpire confirmed it.

If you refer to Greg Williams as the "Moral Triple Brownlow Medallist" this will shit the powers that be off even more.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Maybe Corey McKernan should apply for his Brownlow too on the basis that if the bullshit tripping charge that cost him his Brownlow had been brought in under the current judiciary system he would have received barely enough demerit points for a reprimand.

I'm with GWS on Diesel. A great footballer who seemed more obsessed with his numbers than Steve Waugh. A mercenary who's single mindedness helped make him a great player but not necessarily a great bloke. Going to court over this is a joke. Were they biased against him the two times he won it? Does he want them to check every game in case he got votes ahead of a more deserving player in any game? Perhaps check every game to see that no-one else missed out on votes they should have got. Maybe he wants to review every game he played in 93 to make sure he didn't do anything reportable during the game. If he wanted a medal in 93 he should have played a blinder in the GF and got the Norm Smith

Geez he has got two medals and and many truly great players didn't get any .....

It is often difficult to seperate the performance from the person . When your team is flying you tend to overlook the person and look at their performance. When you struggle people tend to look at the person .

I try when watching sport or going to the movies or even dealing with people in buisness to look at the performance and not the person.

One of the reasons why our club is now at its lowest ebb is because the person has taken over from the performance and most Carlton people, supporters including myself has fell into theis trap .

When you take on a footballer you should take them for their ability not for their personality

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

When he won his first brownlow for the Swans he belted Scott Clayton but got off in dubious circumstances...the AFL wanted the Swans successful and sure enough he won the medal.....the Clayton case was as dodgy a decision as I have seen and he was extremely lucky not to be suspended.....based on that Chris Grant should be joining Williams in claiming a medal as his tribunal decison was trivial at best and would have been thrown out in todays system.....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Yeah 93' was his fault. I actually remember some fools at that game and the 94 finals having a go at him. Fancy bagging one of the greatest players to ever play for our club. You should consider yourself blessed for having seen him play.

You should have a Michael Long hard look at yourself for saying that....

You are a deadset fool. @#$%&! mercenary, he wanted to play for us but those in the know kep knocking him back @#$%&! mercenary, wake up you fool.

I dont think Williams attended the brownlow last night.... i assume he didnt because of the media

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"Dont count the games, make the games count"

When you consider the adversity that Williams fought against as a boy, you can understand why he is the way he is today.

Not many kids in leg braces make it to afl football, let alone win a brownlow.

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My Blue Heaven

You're right Game, my jibe re NS in 93 was a low shot. Sticks should have won it in 93 anyway. Kicked 7 could have kicked 10. You're right Diesel was a great player, but I reckon trying to get votes for a game 12 years ago redone is absurd. He won two, there have been greater injustices and as Elwood points out he may have been lucky not to have been reported in the year he won his first.


And Mark - strong words! Yeah we did knock him back without so much as a reserves game. And swapped him for Fraser Murphy - possibly the worst recruiting mistake in our dim history of recruiting mistakes. Then he was given a lifeline by Geelong and walked out for more money, played at the Swans, got cash under the table and walked out to Carlton where he got paid huge dough. Not sure if that definitively proves he was not a mercenary or makes evryone who takes it as evidence of him being a mercenary a fool. He was a sensational footballer, and one who was very very focussed on his own performance. Terrific player for Carlton and one of my least favourite players. Am I allowed to hold that opinion?

Gerry the thing I find offensive about your branding him a mercenary is he always put in for us. Sure some of your points may seem valid but we are who he wanted to play for in the first place. At the end of the day we had to pay market price - something he was entitled to - that doesnt make him a mercenary. At the end of the day his body was shot so I reckon whatever he got wasnt nearly enough (talking from experience).

Had Diesel simply just gone from club to club chasing dollars fair enough, but did you ever consider he made us pay through the nose to teach us a lesson - ie he would have played with us for nix but we thought he had nothing - then all of a sudden he is valuable and we want him - I know I'd harbour a bit of spite.

Anyway sorry about the fool comment, had a bad day and should have choosen my words better - sorry.

Fair points Mark. I was a bit hard on Diesel. He certainly gave a good example of consistently getting the best out of himself. I think all Blues fans are a bit touchy and frustrated at present. Cheers

According to Dielsel in his book, he only left Geelong because they wouldn't pay him an extra $5000 per year.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I don't begrudge Williams any of the money he earned at any of the clubs he played for. The difference between Williams and Koutoufides in that regard is that Williams gave 100% every minute he was on the ground whilst Kouta seems happy to wander around in a half-arsed way over the last few years. You never left the game feeling that Williams hadn't spent everything he had in the tank and a little bit more.

Williams was everything I like in a footballer. He was hard, tough, highly skilled on both sides of his body and he'd never give up. Unfortunately he was missing the key ingredients of humility and dignity that take great sportsmen into the realms of great men. Those suggesting that he wouldn't have been the footballer he was had he been more humble are guessing. It may be the case but there are plenty of truly great players who've had those charcteristics.

But none of this has anything to do with his current actions which are poor and completely miss the point of the Brownlow. It's a subjective award based on one group of observers who make subjective decisions based on a player's form, fairness and attitude. If someone spends half the day telling you to "get [REDACTED]" how likely would you be to award that bloke votes for a "fairest and best"?

Admiring the sportsperson doesn't mean you have to admire the man and often the sportsperson doesn't make admiring the man particularly easy.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

True blue 24 wrote



Good to see you are sticking to the facts TB24. It has nothing to do with West and his situation. Completely different circumstances. It's about an umpires failure to follow protocol.

Blueman wrote



That puts a bit of perspective to the argument with regards to his character. Bloody amazing effort!! Bloody amazing footballer!!

I agree with Sydney Blue, we should judge Williams as the great Carlton footballer and not the personality. If his personality was a bad influence on the team he would not have helped us win the 1995 flag and counltess other games. He had a dip, got the hard ball and fed it out. I wish we had one of him out there right now; regardless of his perceived personality.

Don't let personality get in the way of the argument against the umpires actions on that day in round 22 1993.

And as for '93 The Game, you should remember that we had 6 players who struggled to take the field on that day. We were the best team in that year, but come the GF we were the walking wounded. Great game by King Kerna that day.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

We were also carrying a few players that should not have been anywhere near a grand final side, eg, Athorn, Powell and to a lesser degree Sholl.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill