IMO Both.
In the Wizard cup teams were willing to let us play our game on our terms. They were trying their set ups and when we opened up our forward line, they were happy to play man on man.
They were experimenting with an eye on the H&A season.

In the home and away season, our opponents wont play us man on man.
Except West Coast who are happy to play anyone that way.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I don't know if you were drunk when you wrote this or what. What you are basically saying is that is impossible to rate a player, and therefore a list. This a basic fundamental skill for anyone following football, and certaintly anyone wanting to comment so much on the team as you do. If you can't tell the difference between for example Carlton's list and WCE list, the you have no position to comment on this board.

As stated above, if you can't rate a player's capabilities, then you how can you track development. Absurd.

What did you think about Adelaide's list at the end of 2004?

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

I thought they were shit....

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

I thought they'd be all right because they had an experienced and talented core group but that Ayers (as he proved at Geelong) couldn't coach all the way to the big one.

Beginging to think Bomber Thompson might be another such which is the thing about bagging Pagan, and he has many many faults but he has nabbed the big one twice.

In the history of this game to coach to a flag means you're doing something right, two means your doing as lot right.

and please not the Carey thing. Every coach has champions in their teams. Jezza, Big Nick, Sticks, SOS, Royce Hart, Judd, Watson, Matthews, all absolute champions as good as Carey in their day (and there are many, many more).

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

First, is that I think you are able to rate lists, you might be wrong, but that is another thing!

Adelaide, I pegged as declining in 2005, and yes was surpised at their strong year. I was wrong in predicting their output from their core senior group of Roo, Goodwin, Edwards, Hart, Clarke, McLeod, Bassett et al. This is where I think Carlton lacks the goods. Our senior group is no where as good as what Adelaide's is, and can not provide the same drive and leadership qualities. I do think however, that Adelaide has only 1-2 years before a bottom 8 decline as this group ages, and the players coming though are not as good.

I know there are posters out there, that rate Carlton's list as better than where we have finished and that is their right. I am interested in where other people think we are rated as this goes directly to where you think we should be and whether Pagan is the right man. I do agree with BV in regards to where we finish is largely irrelevant, but for slightly different reasons. IMO, what is most important is performance against potential / forecast.

Well no, I dont drink actually.

As for your point, I'm not saying it's impossible to rate a player or list but crystal balling with hypotheticals is pointless.
Where we would finish with Paul Roos or Neil Craig at the helm in 06 is guesswork and frankly, a useless exercise.
I'll leave that to you.

What I'd prefer to do is give our players the best opportunity to succeed. Giving them the best tacticians to learn from.
Allowing them to make decisions, be creative and maximise their strengths.
Viewing external experts as someone to assist the group and not as a threat.

Forget the what ifs. Do you believe Denis Pagan is tactically astute?
Do you believe our players are aware of our gameplan and what their role is within that structure?

I dont believe our players are given the best opportunity to become their best. How good they could be, I dont know.
But all we can do is offer them the best chance to succeed by offering them the best resources.

I dont believe Denis Pagan fits that criteria. Just my opinion.






I see your point.
You can comment on football because you rate lists.
The fact that you were wrong is irrelevant.
The fact that I refuse to play guessing games precludes me from commenting.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

*shaking cleched fist*

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dane's trolling again