I remember thinking that. In 2003, it sort of made sense. We had no middle tier and the old guys were largely booted out or retired. So the list was changed over almost 50% in order to turn the list over and give the mature bodies / semi-trieds a chance. It sort of worked; perhaps too well.

At the end of 2004 we went for Chambers and Longmuir. Did the Club really think we were in line to play finals? This can be the only reason as to why you'd top up with 2 more mature aged players, surely? If not, why would you continue to top up? We seemed pretty confident at the end of 2004; 11th place, few delistings. And then 2005 hit...

...At the end of the year, we picked up Saddington - was this a special case given his CHB experience?

Perhaps more important to these is the non-delisting of players we are only now delisting. Some say we had to create space for this years superdraft, some say we couldnt afford to pay anyone out (salary cap in 2004 and actual cash in 2005)...I say i'd much rather us coming last with 15 kids coming through than with 10.

You are right. Carlton supporters don't tolerate rolling over for a prolonged period of time. However, that is what we must put up with whether we like it or not. The pick up of these recycleds was a wasted opportunity, but I am sure that not many of us screamed out against them at the time. Thanks Callum. You did your best and taught us the value of more careful recruiting.

The Denis PAYAGAIN argument is open and shut. You can't go around with a grab bag of cliches including, "I don't want to hear about the labour pains, just show me the baby" when talking about players performances and then whinge and whine with, "No one will ever know what we've gone through" and "We've been to hell and back" and "We're 3 three years into a 5 year sentence" etc etc when talking about your performance as a coach. You have lost all credibility (by the way, some cuckold named Carey gift wrapped most of your credibility anyway)

Take at least a 25% pay cut and get paid like the coach of successive wooden spooners and maybe you'll get some of that respect back

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

Would be interested in the reactions if Pagan was sacked, especially after the Mark Price episode this week. I think many of you would be surprised at the support for Pagan as coach outside these forums.

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

We could follow suit and appoint Marc Murphy playing coach.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Is there some new news item we should know about?

Yeah nah (sounding like Frawley) I totally agree. That's been half of our problem. Most people outside Carlton have been hoodwinked into believing all our ills have been caused by the draft penalties. The media have gone toooooooooooooo eaassssssssy on Denis Payagain for too long. As I keep saying, his coaching record would not have looked so great had Mercuri kicked a goal in the dying seconds of the 99 prelim or had Wanga not hit the post in the 96 prelim

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

Sounds like an Essendon* supporter.

I assure you, I'm as carlton as they come. I'm just sick of hearing about Denis Payagain's credentials. He has delivered us nothing but but we've delivered him around 3milllion.

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!