interesting that your response was about me and not the topic, danny. I suppose that really speaks to the integrity of your opinion on this. And, also, your absolutisms.

I'm also a big fan of people responding to a post of mine with the "you're a hypocrite" line while being hypocrites themselves. Very comical.

"Indicative of history"... thats all well and good to be hysterical about it, but whats your alternative to the situation?

We don't have the luxury of a time-machine.

We don't have any kids on the list we can play the position (besides a very speculative prospect who still requires coaching-in to the role)

The guys who are 4cm taller are shit

There's no better ruck available in the PSD

We have a cache of ND picks to correct the situation with long-term, but they can't play next year (in all likelihood.... and even if one of them does, we generally play with 2 rucks and Ackland's better than McLaren so he's in the team...)



The incremental benefit of adding Ackland is obvious.. in the absense of a time machine.

Is the contract we offered him (ie the investment) worth that incremental return?

maybe... maybe not...

but realistically, player's salaries are like "dummy money". The money has to go somewhere. We might have offered Ackland a front-loaded deal while we have space (this year) and a low salary in the next 2 when we need the cash to re-sign our guns for all we know.

There's no perspective in these rantings. The only valid argument has come from Elwood and guys who say flat out he's shit and worse (I believe they're saying) than McLaren and Bryan/DeLuca. Thats a value call that may be right. I personally don't agree and the club don't seem to either. But we may be proven wrong.

but unless you have a time machine, you need perspective... or as Wolfe puts it, a "REALITY CHECK"... or at least wait till after the national draft if we don't pick a rookie ruck and then spout off.

I might be an arrogant arsehole but do you blame me? FFS!

Wolfe - good thread mate.

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Love Cricket? Love me

umm blame you, no you may bore me at times and I may think it would be good for you to seek therapy sometimes but I don't blame you, just sometimes a wish you could be a bit more flexible is all.

as for the hysterical, does that mean if we do not pick Gibbs you'll wait before venting yourself in a thousand threads?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Danny in response ... firstly this thread is not refective of Ackland there is a whole thread devoted to him. The thread is about that we at cartlon need to get a Reality check of how far this club has fallen and how it is viewed by possible player trades and grabbing a good out of contract player. In our recent situation we dont have much pulling power...
Even more so we have to make certain that our key future players are retained and not wanting to go elsewhere.
Solution fix the clubs image / branding / united Board / united and secure coaching panel.

In the past when successful / open chequebook ect we could get any player we wanted and alternatively we had players wanting to play for the Great Navy Blue.
Do i think that we will return in the near future i am hoping so and that lots of lessons are learnt and we never go back to where we have been these last 4 years.

In regards to our ruck stocks / signing of Ackland

Okay you believe that Deluca is our current best potential Ruck option and a resonable forward option... on paper and his size would make us believe you are correct
Statistically
13 games - average 4.1 HO / 5 Marks / 0.6 Goals / 9.4 Posessions a game
Dosnt read to well for a Ruckman or a forward and at 202cm / 99Kgs
The weakness of Deluca prob affects his ability to ruck and also play forward - lacks awareness / slow in his decision making / not sure if he lacks confidence or just lacks co-ordination but has affected his marking and certainly makes him useless in rucking to our advantage let a lone even wining the ruck contest.
Bryan / Maclaren are both better prospects and with Ackland coming through PSD has so far shown that he can be a servicable ruckman and play the main ruck role as the number #1 ruck.

Ackland - if taken in PSD as expected would be the only Ruckman to have shown he can run out a game as a number #1 ruck from our available option ideally no not the best option in regards to other main ruckman better than what we have yes more mobile better endurance and yes undersized.
Maclaren - offers prob the next best option in Ruck ability but is always a back up option at best..may still be able to show more
Bryan - weaker in ruck but has that big kick but questions on his work ethic and wanting to play at highest level
Deluca - As above maybe he is the Tallest option we have and in theory should be the best but for reason given above has no ruck sense and i am still uncertain will have really much impact in the forward line. Re with Kennedy being a far better prospect ..


The Ackland decision is only a good one if its part of a sounded out solution

For the Ackland decision IMO to be acceptable would be to delist Bryan or Deluca or both.
Use the Available slots for a Prespective young ruckman ie Tippert / Renouf / Michael griffiths (outside Punt) or any other player not yet seen.
I would like us to take Gibbs at Number #1 for going along way to making our Midfield sorted out. Also depending on what we pickup in this years draft also look to completing the ruck options in the 2007 Draft.
If ths is done then i am not unhappy with the Ackland decision.
if we have taken Ackland to be our Number #1 ruck for a long term future and keep our ruck situation without looking at drafting 1 or 2 developing rucks then agreed Danny the decision would not be a great one.

Last thing as for PSD and having first pick we would be negligent of our duties if we passed on our PSD Pick #1 its ideal use is to prise a uncontracted / required player from another teams list. We have achieved this with Ackland and hey i wish we had managed to get Mcphee but he knocked us back. Ackland was certainly someone the Saints where keen to retain. They also believe there is still an upside to Ackland so i will hold back comment until i see how he settles in when he arrives.

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

wolfe: 'The Ackland decision is only a good one if its part of a sounded out solution

For the Ackland decision IMO to be acceptable would be to delist Bryan or Deluca or both.
Use the Available slots for a Prespective young ruckman ie Tippert / Renouf / Michael griffiths (outside Punt) or any other player not yet seen.
I would like us to take Gibbs at Number #1 for going along way to making our Midfield sorted out. Also depending on what we pickup in this years draft also look to completing the ruck options in the 2007 Draft.
If ths is done then i am not unhappy with the Ackland decision.' which I have said i agree with. My fear is that this will not be the case - what do i base this on - only the Past 6 or 7 years of Carlton's recruiting strategy - hopefully I am wrong and they have finally realised we need to develop quality ruckmen. We will all soon know.


wolfe: 'if we have taken Ackland to be our Number #1 ruck for a long term future and keep our ruck situation without looking at drafting 1 or 2 developing rucks then agreed Danny the decision would not be a great one.' - WORSE IS WOULD BE A SHOCKING DECISION THAT PUTS US BACK AT LEAST ANOTHER YEAR. - unless of course Cain turns out to be a ripper - and if he does fantastic! But if this is another plug attempt then yep, I am disgusted.

wolfe: 'Last thing as for PSD and having first pick we would be negligent of our duties if we passed on our PSD Pick #1 its ideal use is to prise a uncontracted / required player from another teams list.' - why? Certainly we should target one or two rippers and go for them, and if it fails so be it. I'd rather a kid than Ackland and hope I am wrong but to me (from the six or so St games I've watched, not much I know) he is a c grade ruckman at best (which is where I'd put McLaren)

wolfe: 'We have achieved this with Ackland and hey i wish we had managed to get Mcphee but he knocked us back. Ackland was certainly someone the Saints where keen to retain. They also believe there is still an upside to Ackland so i will hold back comment until i see how he settles in when he arrives. ' I worry about this too, St were keen, so keen they went after Gardiner. So they see Cain as what, their 2nd or 3rd best option? Does not instil me with any confidence.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Yes the Saints took Gardiner but also Ackland was part of the Ruck group pssibly as Gardiner may for the following reasons
* May break down
* possibly can only do ruck for short bursts and to be used in the forward line
* Gardiner was a addition to there current ruck stocks but a big risk also

Ackland was required by Lyon who wanted to sign him up for 2 more years.

In Saints line up Gardiner could be good but big risk and big unknown due to his knees / And keeping himself out of any trouble (bad history there)
Blake most Saints say is a Mobile backman who fills in ruck occasionaly Acland is well ahed of Black.. Rix still unnown whether he steps ups or fails .. Brooks similar to Rix and Kosi could be great but also very fragile

Ackland leaving the saints cancels out any benefit they got from Gardiner being recruited and maybe even causes them more problems as Gardnier is a risk. Ackland was there primary ruck and was servicable and has rucked the most out of all the current Blues and Saints options as the main ruckman at a club

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

but are we happy with Ackland because of the hurt he may bring the Saints?

That means little to me Wolfe - no it means zilch.

What I want to know is -

Will he be a long term ruckman?

Or is he a stop gap but we will recruit 2 or 3 kids over the next two years using high picks (say 1 2nd, 1 3rd and a rookie - or a 1st round if deemed best footballer)?

yes to either of these and I am happier.

no to both and I am furious, our recent history tells me both answers will be no.

If I am wrong I will be a happy little camper because it would be another indication that maybe we are grasping this draft thingy.

If not disappointed is not the half of it.

Now I know buffoons are saying 'wait wait wait' why? This is a forum, its purpose is surely to guess what we think is and will happen? (I guess 2 nos and pray I am wrong.)

Or is this place now just a reporting zone?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Danny i didnt say we took Ackland to hurt the saints i believe that Ackland leaving the Saints puts them in a situation they where trying to fix.

Ackland coming to the Blues yes if they take steps between this draft and next years to secure some good young prospects who can get up to senior standard.

History of Ruckman show that they dont come into play properly until around 23 - 30 either bad or good i guess but if we select 2-3 young prospects the chance one comes good is hard to determine as you just dont know properly until they get into that 23 -25 age bracket.

if we get Ackland to develope some young prospects to develope and grow into a senior role by giving them time then hopefully we will secure our ruck options in the future.

At this stage Ackland is veiwed as a servicable Ruck option but hey he may surprise and perform better than we expect look at Peter Street / Simmonds and i am sure there are a few others who have improved when given the number #1 ruck role.. so we have to wait and see on Ackland

Just for the record Danny how do you rate Simmonds he was talked about in 06 as being all Australian Ruck and at age 28

Want to guess at his Height ???? hmmm 196cm sounds same as Simmonds and i dont remember him being a A - class ruck at 24-25 but certainly last couple of seasons especially with the Tigers he has become a premier Ruckman.

Not Saying Acland will be as good but like any propsective young Ruck who you need to see how they perform. Ackland should be given an oppertunity to see how he goes ... and i am sure we have taken him to be our current Number #1 Ruck so the spotlight will be on him to perform and hopefully he steps up and can be used to a similar way to Simmonds.

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

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dane's trolling again

actually I think as a ruckman Simmonds makes a good ruckrover/forward option.

But against Cox, Sandilands, White and Everitt - na I'd take them over Simmonds. Think Richmond (aka Wallace) has a great way of blowing their own trumpets but he's just a ruckman as far as I'm concerned. - and yet I'd prefer him to Ackland by the length of a football season.

Plus Simmonds I'd have rated ahead of Ackland even when he was at Fremantle - which says something about him.

as for the height, see I think the point is (like with the whole midfielder thing) the bar is moving away from the 196ers. I think the Sandilands White contest was a ripper because as hard as White tried he was beaten by the height of the man. My tip is that height factor will keep occurring and 196ers will be redundant. So if we have picked Cain for a job for a year or 2 (or 3)( especially if we delist McLaren) fine as long as we draft to find the two/three riuckmen we need.



and yes, I hope you are right and Cain turns it around and becomes a super ruckman for us - but on what you have seen what are you basing it on? Because on what I have seen he's just a Prenda without the awkward kicking style and the ability to kick a goal or two.

I hope Cain sticks it so far up my arse I can't sit for a week but I am not counting on it.

I hope Carlton now draft a young ruckman or two but I am not counting on it.

In the end I guess I am just tired of the stop gaps and can't wait till we are doing a lot more.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

sometimes I wonder if your computer screen is actually a mirror...

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Love Cricket? Love me

gee sometimes I wonder if you ever bother re-reading yourself and seeing the full of shit the rest of us see.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

*cough*

Only 4 months to go Mrs C, good luck.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

Don't you think I have enough pressure from this side of the fence?

are you saying every single post I've made has been shit?

wow... I must be ABSOLUTELY shit then.

if only I were 200cm... then Carlton people would accept me.





Welcome to the club Cain. I'm very ready to be surprised!

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Love Cricket? Love me

Take it outside you two!

or get a room.

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Ich bein ein Carltonian

Oh no no no I won't have that! There's a place in Eastbourne!!

I could not possibly have read every single post

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

my computer does not work outside - though I suppose I could use the laptop.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!