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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:16 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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kennyhunter wrote:
Cheers, Cazz.

Will be interesting to see what "sneaky leaks" about who we are supposed to be taking as the draft nears.

And that must be you longest post for ... how long??? :-D

Miss you, Mojo31 ... :wink:


You been keeping track kenny :P

I'm trying to ween myself off TC. Bit like smoking, I on the TC Patches. I'm down to 3 on each shoulder.

By my reckoning my final post should be about 9.59am on November 25th 2006 :wink: Poooooofffff all gone :twisted:

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:17 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Cazzesman wrote:
Siegfried wrote:
Cazzesman wrote:
It still takes 22 to win a premiership and even Gibbs with a big red 'S' on his jumper couldn't win a premiership without help from 21 team-mates.


NO!!!...I'm devastated!! You've shattered all my delusions!! :lol:

Thanks for the low-down though, muchos appreciated.


:lol: :lol: Yes it was a major cliche' but some CFC supports think that our #1, whomever it may be, will be the messiah and that it is tooooo much weight to carry on young shoulders.

#1 will just be another piece in the puzzle - no more no less. (cliche' #2 :wink: )

Regards Cazzesman


Cast your mind back 12 months. Nothing has changed. And the more you protest, the more it will stay the same.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:23 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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verbs wrote:
Cazzesman wrote:
Siegfried wrote:
Cazzesman wrote:
It still takes 22 to win a premiership and even Gibbs with a big red 'S' on his jumper couldn't win a premiership without help from 21 team-mates.


NO!!!...I'm devastated!! You've shattered all my delusions!! :lol:

Thanks for the low-down though, muchos appreciated.


:lol: :lol: Yes it was a major cliche' but some CFC supports think that our #1, whomever it may be, will be the messiah and that it is tooooo much weight to carry on young shoulders.

#1 will just be another piece in the puzzle - no more no less. (cliche' #2 :wink: )

Regards Cazzesman


Cast your mind back 12 months. Nothing has changed. And the more you protest, the more it will stay the same.


You think..."I protesteth tooooo much?" verbs :lol: :lol:

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:24 pm 
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Ken Hands
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JuzzCarlton wrote:
Nonsense.

Rucks also take longer to develop and bulk up so they're losing a stack of games compared to midfielders who can play straight away. You have to draft the best talent unless you're Footscray, Richmond or Hawthorn who went for players to fill a position with early picks and overlooked Griffen, Franklin and Meesen.



Mate i think you're losing the plot...not sure if you're arguing your point or mine.

That's precisely what i'm saying...you won't get the same length of service from a great ruckman as you will from a great midfielder.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:31 pm 
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Ken Hands
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Cazzesman wrote:
As an organisation the Blues seem very risk averse (from an outside-looking-in) and have been post-Elliott. I'm curious (not hinting anything.... curious) how much of that culture has flowed into the recruiting team. And, I'm not saying its a BAD thing if thats happened... just curious.

Good question.

What is the answer?

If he cautious? Yes & No. He looks long and hard at the whole package of a player. Not just whether the lad can mark and kick but - will he be a good fit at CFC, will he be happy at CFC, will he knuckle down to get the best out of himself, does he have any issues that will stopping him committing 110%, does he have family support, etc, etc, etc.

Regards Cazzesman


Let's hope his isntincts this time are better than two years ago (Jordan Russel).

Otherwise thanks for the insight Cazz...i think WH is on a hiding to nothing...pick the right guy and it's what is expected, pick the wrong guy and he cops it ...it is not a job that I would envy.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:39 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Cazzesman wrote:
verbs wrote:
Cazzesman wrote:
Siegfried wrote:
Cazzesman wrote:
It still takes 22 to win a premiership and even Gibbs with a big red 'S' on his jumper couldn't win a premiership without help from 21 team-mates.


NO!!!...I'm devastated!! You've shattered all my delusions!! :lol:

Thanks for the low-down though, muchos appreciated.


:lol: :lol: Yes it was a major cliche' but some CFC supports think that our #1, whomever it may be, will be the messiah and that it is tooooo much weight to carry on young shoulders.

#1 will just be another piece in the puzzle - no more no less. (cliche' #2 :wink: )

Regards Cazzesman


Cast your mind back 12 months. Nothing has changed. And the more you protest, the more it will stay the same.


You think..."I protesteth tooooo much?" verbs :lol: :lol:

Regards Cazzesman


Yes


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:40 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Teddy wrote:
Cazzesman wrote:
As an organisation the Blues seem very risk averse (from an outside-looking-in) and have been post-Elliott. I'm curious (not hinting anything.... curious) how much of that culture has flowed into the recruiting team. And, I'm not saying its a BAD thing if thats happened... just curious.

Good question.

What is the answer?

If he cautious? Yes & No. He looks long and hard at the whole package of a player. Not just whether the lad can mark and kick but - will he be a good fit at CFC, will he be happy at CFC, will he knuckle down to get the best out of himself, does he have any issues that will stopping him committing 110%, does he have family support, etc, etc, etc.

Regards Cazzesman


Let's hope his isntincts this time are better than two years ago (Jordan Russel).

Otherwise thanks for the insight Cazz...i think WH is on a hiding to nothing...pick the right guy and it's what is expected, pick the wrong guy and he cops it ...it is not a job that I would envy.


Don't give up on JR yet. Look up the insightful post by Mr Cazz during the trade week hoo-ha. Let's judge the kid in a year or two.

And what about the pressure on WH. While it seems like it is hard to get it wrong with any of the top half-dozen this year, it would be a good year to have pick 2-4 :) We'll be pillored for years if we get it even slightly wrong.

There's only one solution ... take Hansen :-D

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:41 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Teddy wrote:
JuzzCarlton wrote:
Nonsense.

Rucks also take longer to develop and bulk up so they're losing a stack of games compared to midfielders who can play straight away. You have to draft the best talent unless you're Footscray, Richmond or Hawthorn who went for players to fill a position with early picks and overlooked Griffen, Franklin and Meesen.



Mate i think you're losing the plot...not sure if you're arguing your point or mine.

That's precisely what i'm saying...you won't get the same length of service from a great ruckman as you will from a great midfielder.

Where? :?

I was talking about picking the best on offer regardless of position and pointing out they're not a wasted pick because they take longer to develop. You lost the plot the minute you posted we need to pick a midfielder when he isn't the best available talent.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:48 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Siegfried wrote:
JuzzCarlton wrote:
Nonsense.

Rucks also take longer to develop and bulk up so they're losing a stack of games compared to midfielders who can play straight away. You have to draft the best talent unless you're Footscray, Richmond or Hawthorn who went for players to fill a position with early picks and overlooked Griffen, Franklin and Meesen.

I hope we draft Leuenberger just to see every knowledgeable person whinge about and say what a mistake it was.


Just curious Juzz...aside from Everett, name the last ruckmen to play top level football for more than 5 or 6 years. I can't think of one.

He played for nine seasons after being drafted with pick two.

Or last year's Premiership ruckman who played in two flags.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:54 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Ball was a forward for the first half of his career and Primus was finished 4 years ago. There is more to footy than stats.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:12 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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TheGame wrote:
Ball was a forward for the first half of his career and Primus was finished 4 years ago. There is more to footy than stats.

Like showing they played more than four to six seasons!

There is more to posting than getting under someone's skin.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:23 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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What about Matthew Clarke who played about 250 games?

Clarke Keating debuted in 1996, and has played about 150 games (plus 3 premierships).

Josh Fraser has played seven years straight.

King has played almost 200 games since 1996.

The list goes on.

What is the issue?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:36 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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verbs wrote:
What about Matthew Clarke who played about 250 games?

Clarke Keating debuted in 1996, and has played about 150 games (plus 3 premierships).

Josh Fraser has played seven years straight.

King has played almost 200 games since 1996.

The list goes on.

What is the issue?


My initial post said the past few top ruckmen have had little time at their prime. I didn't question how many games they played, that's just Juzz s@#$ spinning as usual. Chances are we would get more value out of a good midfielder than a good ruckman. In our position we need players in every position so it's a no brainer for me.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:58 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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You've lost me.

I just went A - G (Adelaide to Geelong) for ruckmen with long careers who have been playing at the top level.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:05 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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Carlton can be risk takers, but which top 5 player is a risk?

This is the superdraft. We need a bit of everything; and its got a bit of everthing.

MIDFIELD: Gibbs
RUCK: Leuenberger
CHB/KP: Hansen
FB/KP::Gumbleton

I've been backing the Leuey for the last month, because to me he's more of a 10 year player than all the current ruckmen running around; maybe bar Cox and Everitt (that's because I've seen Cox at the heighest level, and Everitt has done it)...Sandilands is a freak, but he might breakdown ayday imo; that's a lot of weight on those hips, knees and ankles.

Great ruckmen are rare, that's why there's more midfielders to have a 10 year playing career. So when you find one they will plug and produce in one of the most difficult positions to fill in the team for 10 years, then you'd so they are a diamond.

To have a ruckman going at pick 1-3 in a draft, and you have the #1 selection, well that's a once in a decade opportunity; because first choice selections from trade or spooner position are so rare in themselves.

Lets face it, I can't say it enough: Carlton have failed miserably to draft a ruckman for the future for the last 10 years, and therefore failed to plan for the future. Their reason may be becuase the opportunity never presented itself. They have the opportunity now, but it would be considered a risk by some. There is no risk. No matter what you get in the top 5-6 in this year's draft it is going to be good.

This morning I had a rush of guilt that we were going to miss out on Gibbs, because I was so sure we were not going to take Leuenberger. I obviously had the luxury of backing Leuey when I was sure Carlton would go with Gibbs. Now I'm not too sure.

Well right now, I have nothing to lose either way, and I'm prepared to take a risk. If Carlton is guilty of being boring, then why don't they take a risk and change that, and still get Gibbs. How? Attract Leuenberger after the 2 year apprenticeship with Port or whoever...ala Gibbs and Fantasia's fantasy of making Gibbs a Crow in 2 years. That'll prove if Leuey is a Blue boy or not. But that's not the point, because you primarily look at his ability first.

Leave it destiny?

Can someone please get Carlton the PP 2002 PP before the draft....I also want Hansen. Two of either 3 would be sensational.

No matter which way we go, we will miss out on plugging all our holes in this draft, given the plethora of key positions needing filling at the club. Nevertleless we are getting closer.

Leuenberger will be better than Primus, Lade, Fraser, White, Keating, Clarke, and maybe even Madden, including former pick #1 in Kossi, for all we know; probably will. If he's remotely close to Cox or Sandilands in impact, then that'll be great....if he's at Carlton.

Immediate impact = Gibbs
10 year impact = Gibbs and Leuenberger
Leadership = Gibbs

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:06 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Well Verbs there are a few hundred player who are playing at the top level but then there are a couple of dozen who are the elite with only a couple of them being ruckmen. I can't make it any simpler. If you don't believe Steven King is finished as an elite player then we may as well end the discussion now.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:12 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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GIBBS is number 1.

GIBBS1
GIBBS1
GIBBS1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:16 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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TheGame wrote:
Well Verbs there are a few hundred player who are playing at the top level but then there are a couple of dozen who are the elite with only a couple of them being ruckmen. I can't make it any simpler. If you don't believe Steven King is finished as an elite player then we may as well end the discussion now.


But he was elite?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:26 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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verbs wrote:
TheGame wrote:
Well Verbs there are a few hundred player who are playing at the top level but then there are a couple of dozen who are the elite with only a couple of them being ruckmen. I can't make it any simpler. If you don't believe Steven King is finished as an elite player then we may as well end the discussion now.


But he was elite?


For about a year or two he was just about the best, just the cats weren't any good.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:28 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Hey Game, I've got brick wall over here if you want to smah your head agianst it.

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