Still doesnt take away that he is yesterdays man at Carlton.

cos if he is as good as you say... he wouldnt have been the proud bringer of 2 wooden spoons in a year..and everyone wanting to get as far away from him as possible...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Don't think you read Elwood's post.

1) The source is the partner of an ex-Roos PLAYER - yes, who played under PAGAN!

2) Carey, Stevens, Archer said that about him. How about the others? How about McKernan? How about others?

3) How can the relationship between the coach and his players not be football related as you insinuate? IMO that's the problem that faces the Carlton FC at the moment. The players and the coach are clearly not on good terms; where is the team spirit and the playing for the coach like they have at the Swans?

I ask you this SA Blue. Why do you think it's drivel just because there's no mention of tactics blah blah.

Your post is drivel because it's got no mention of tactics, how Pagan's "reinvented" players at Carlton, how he has had to do it with limited resources.

My previous paragraph sound like crap - well, it is - and it's no different to what you posted.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

I am a better coach than Denis.

I can win 2 woodenspoons in 2 years (BTW unlike Denis i wouldnt be trying to win games for now) plus id be more popular with the players...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

HEAR HEAR HEAR!
And another thing. Glenn Manton was a bit of a tosser BUT if anyone can ever convince me that Micky Martyn was a more valuable inclusion in our best 22 in 2003 than Glenn Manton (who Payagain allowed to deliberately rot in the ressies for the whole year), I will fair dinkum buy a parrot and open up a cheap and tawdry furniture store.
P.S Give me just a hundred grand a year for the next two years and I'll coach the Blues to successive spoons. Statistically, I will have done no worse than Denis Payagain
CAN SOMEONE JUST SHOW SOME COGLIONES AND POINT HIM TOWARDS THE F@#$%ing DOOR...........PLEASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSE. HOW MUCH MORE PROOF DO THEY WANT?????????

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

The fact is, the days of long term coaches like Sheedy are coming to an end. You can't coach a team off the bottom of the ladder and then return them there for the next two consecutive seasons and expect to be able to lift them back again; the message is stale, the players have heard it for too long and associated it with failure and start questioning whether or not the coach knows what he's talking about. From that point on you cease to have a coach, you've got a bloke that players don't trust and resent when he tries to implement his ideas.

I don't think this is a Pagan problem specifically I think it's just part of the human dynamics between player and coach. When the message is no longer taken on board it creates fractures and it can only be brought back together by a change in leadership. Pagan did the cleanout when he took control, but he unfortunately went down the path of instant gratification with mature players, and whilst he got more out of them than most could have, in the end he was stuck with a team that had severe lack of talent and it was clear that a true ground up resoration of the list was in order. We've now had two rebuilds and all we've really had is the negative aspect of undertaking such a task - that is the time at the bottom - and I guarantee the players are just as sick of it as the supporters are.

I don't care whether Pagan is a quality coach or not, and i don't give an arse about what he did at North, I just know that to get the best out of the playing list that we're developing, we need everyone pulling in the one direction. Players need to get excited about the team going forward and have a want to contribute, that will happen when someone with fresh ideas comes on board and takes over. I have sympathy for Denis, he walked into a club that he knew was due for a complete rebuild and he had the natural means to do so stifled by AFL penalties, but the club has to move forward and Denis has had his time in the sun.

I hear what you're saying, but you may still NOT be more popular with ALL players.

For every 9 players that like the way you communicate, there will be 1 that doesn't.
For every 9 players that agree with your tactics, there will be 1 they don't suit.
For every 9 players that will play FOR you, there will be 1 that plays IN SPITE of you.

I thought Barnaby was very diplomatic in the article......and I thought he was saying Denis is yesterday's coach.....but the players need to take responsibility for their endevour and committment on the field. Any player can work on these aspects regardless of the coach.

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That's right. Gather the nector my little drones and make honey. Honey for your children.......Fools!!!

so by this logic I should have played Simmo's first 3 games would statistically have done at least as good a job - hell I may have got a kick and done far better - hey I can play AFL!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Well done Mr French

I love the arguement that Pagan was a good coach at north - Who cares

I dont care what Barass did and Melb, North or the swans
I dont care what Walls did at Fitzroy , Brisbane and Richmond
I dont care what Jezza did at Stklida or Sheldon and now SOS
I dont care what Parkin did at fitzroy and Hawthorn

The only thing I care about is how good they are at Carlton and so far Pagans time at Carlton has been TOTAL SHIT

So he may have been a good coach at North

But he is a crap coach at Carlton and should have been show the door along with Elliott at that EGM

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

This is a remarkable opinion. I just can't see any logic behind it whatsoever .

Its amazing how little some posters actually know about the dynamics of how football works. We have a SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! list. You could get any coach you want but reality is they would not have done a better job with the shit that was left when pagan took over. We should now start to judge Pagan because he now has a nucleaus of a football team. The facilities Carlton has at their disposal are a considered a laughing stock amongst other AFL clubs. WAKE UP PEOPLE getting rid of one person is not going to fix all our problems

Pagans crap, Mantons got no class because he bagged the club, dont let your wife take a piss in the same building as Wayne Carey, we all could coach the club to two wooden sppons, Barnabys is either diplomatic or piss weak and Synbad thinks the players would love him.

Man this thread has it all.

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Ich bein ein Carltonian

Carlton God has a brother.
Another all seeing, all knowing poster.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

How do you reckon Paul Roos would have gone with the players Pagan has had at his disposal????? again it amazes me how liitle football understanding some people on this forum actually have.

seems the perfect thread for it

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Could not agree more.

The only thing that could make a seemingly intelligent person overlook the blatantly obvious as you have pointed out,BL, is their blind passion and love they have for the CLUB.

Because logic would tell you that we WERE shitful and it was going to take any coach years to get a list worth half a pinch of poo.

You could've put Paul Roos, Worsfold, Craig or anyone in this position and everyone would be saying "We should've got Pagan!!"

I agree, I'll mark him from this year too - If we don't see any improvement in the first half of the year I'll be expecting to payout his last year and have no problems with that.

I suspect that we will see improvement, and the team that PAGAN has built from below ground zero will be successful for many years.

And I hope Carlton God finds this thread when we're playing off in September action so we can have another cack .

Silly argument as Paul Roos wouldn't have recruited the following:
Kenna
Johnson
mcgrath
Mott
Longmuir
Chambers
Saddington
Bryan
Angwin
Martyn
Bannister

French, from reading the article, comes across as someone with above average intelligence. I'm guessing he managed his finances perfectly during his rather brief career, didn't squander a cent, and now can live comfortably for the next twelve months reflecting on his life so far and planning the next step he will take.

If you belive it hard enough sometimes miracles may come true.

What happened at North is irrelevant at Carlton. He's not perform and whatever happened at North ain't going to help us here.

No it would have been Earl Shaw and so on...

Paul Roos inherited 90% of their list.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.