Paul Roos didn't have to because;
A - He inherited a fairly good team that played middle of the range football and just had to tweak a good list

and

B - He could chose whoever he like with his first 2 picks in the 2002 and 2003 drafts.

Not to mention he had enough money to ensure nobody left the Swans that he wanted to keep, and he was able to use what was left to convince a fairly good FF to move North.

I'll betcha Dennis would've loved that job.

But he recruited Spriggs, Chambers, etc. Every club has its failures and successes with recruits from other clubs.

Look at the thread on our drafting record right from the beginning (1989-2005) and thats the reaosn why we're in such a bad way at the moment.

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In WADA we trust

i think Roos wouldnt have been two happy about walking into the club that was effectively held out of the draft for two years either.

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Ich bein ein Carltonian

The Swans haven't had many draft successes in his time as head coach.

Hopefully he's not getting stuck into the decision making. They have made a couple of good trades in Hall (or was that just before him?) and Davis, and have broken even for Jolly.

That, along with McVeigh and the redrafting of Buchanon are their best efforts in this area in that time.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

90% Jim?
You would'nt be guessing again would you?
I'd suggest more than 50% of the Swans list came to the club under Roos' reign.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Not point arguing with those guys BV - they just don't get it

How many players he inherited is basically irrelevant. With retirements, trades and de-listing over 4 years he's probably changed 20 players with the luxury of knowing blokes like Goodes, Hall, Kennely, OKeef, Kirk, Olaughlin and Barry etc would be there to hold the ship steady.

I don't reckon you could argue that his list was any where near as fooked as ours was, could you?

Add that to 6 missing picks and you couldn't possibly suggest that there's some sort of parrallel to draw, could you?

Bolton, Richards, Ball - a few handy ones

And by the way I still have my 2003 Footy preview lift out book from the Herald Sun and most so called experts had the blues bouncing back to make the eight and the swans favourites for the spoon . I think they smashed us by nearly 100 points in the first round

It's marvellous what a good coach can do for a team

Stop F#*King try to tell me that Pagan is a poor hard done by coach he is shit we have two spoons under him with an honourable 11th and a 15th to go along with it. Good coaches dont get results like this

Name me one other

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

no one as bad I'd suggest, for me the closest might be Barass's time at Melbourne/Sydney (same alegations of the game having passed him by too) where he didn't get the results yet in both cases seemed to manage to change the culture somewhat.

I hope when Denis goes (and I think that's now almost forgone with the push against him) we discover for all his faults he also helped turn this club around.

Mind you silly me also hopes he turns it around this season and sticks it so far up people we'll be a bunch of supporting waddlers!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Expect news on Scotland's views on Pagan, Holland's views on Pagan and German's views on Pagan in the next couple of days.

Now that French is a man of liesure too, I hope he enjoys himself. I didn't realise he was a premiership player the year before he came to our club.

So do I

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Good point about Barassi.

He turned both Melbourne and Sydney around. The results were not in the wins column while he was at each club but he did built the platform for future success (relatively speaking).

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You lot who've brought up Paul Roos - you've shot yourselves in the foot with your argument. Nice desperation here.

Paul Roos came into the Sydney club, a club that was struggling under Rodney Eade (who's now being hailed as a wonder coach at the Dogs - but rightfully so). Sydney players had had enough of Eade, his tactics were stale, the team hadn't been performing well. Rumour up here was that he'd lost some of the players.

In comes Roos - the place is transformed. From all accounts, extremely likeable, brilliant encourager of players - team oriented coach with great tactical brain to boot.

IMO if Paul Roos had come into this Carlton side, he might have had a bad first year, but he would have made a bigger difference in 2004 and 2005. I'm not denying we could have a better list, but Sydney's list is not that spectacular either. We all looked at Sydney's list versus West Coast and thought - no way, Swans are gone - but they won in 2005 and lost by a point in 2006.

If you look at the Swans best 6 - Hall, Goodes, O'Loughlin, Barry, Jolly, Kirk. - we're not that far behind - Fevola, Stevens, Thornton, Murphy, Walker, Simpson - it's our 17-22 players that are lacking. Sydney's worst players in their 2005/06 sides has been Nick Davis, arguably Jared Crouch - neither of these players are poor, but neither are they stars.

What you Pagan-lovers don't seem to realise is that he hasn't got the players playing as a team. There's no spirit - Roos would have engendered it.

And don't start talking to me about Pagan and North and how players played for him. Players were made to tow the line by Carey, Archer and co. Pagan hasn't got this at Carlton. The captain (Kouta) has been ambivalent at best about supporting the coach and the captain has not rallied the players, cajoled them, bullied them into following the coach like Carey, Archer and co did.

When players aren't talked to for weeks on end by the coach, you wonder why they have no respect for him.

The Duke wrote:


I argue that Pagan not being liked by a great proportion of the Carlton list is one of the plain reasons why we are so poor. What are you going to say when we're 1-6 next year? Blame it on the players again?

We should theoretically be better - we've just about got enough high picks as St Kilda.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

so the culture change he made at Melbourne meant they played in GF and lost some 10 or so years after he left

and the culture change he made at sydney meant they won a grand final over 12 years after he left

Looooooonggggg Bows being drawn

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

What the?!?!

Barassi coached Melbourne from 1981-1985, in 1981 they were woeful, one of the worst sides ever (they won 1 game for the year), they made the GF in 1988.

He coached the Swans from 1993-1995, (wooden spoons in 1993 and 1994 and 12th in 1995, after a spoon pre barassi in 1992) they played in a grand final in 1996 and have been up and about ever since.

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Of course it's a crap environment - we're losing. Do you expect everyone to love being in a sporting team that hasn't had success for 5 years? That goes against the definition of TEAM.

What you need to decide is, are we losing because our coach is crap or because we've got a crap team.

Keep an eye on Matthews. Remember him, the wonder coach that could do no wrong just a couple of years back.

Is he the greatest coach in history, or did he just have an awesome group of players.

I suspect we'll find out in 2007. My tip is the latter as Aka has eluded to. If I remember correctly, Wallsy had something to do with the list they had during Mathews' glory years .

If I were to pick who I wanted to build a team from the ground up, I reckon I'd go for Pagan - and from what our list is shaping into, I reckon I'd be right.

Too distracted to think about the figures.

He's brought in very little genuine talent and had a LOT of turnover.

The Swans will be entering a very interesting period soon and if Roos is dabbling in recruitment too much and gets selfish, he won't be a golden boy anymore.

Side issue anyway. Every coach has faults and having a young/crap/imbalanced list doesn't help.

SB - I'd justify myself to you but it would just be pointless. You have your opinion, and you stick to it. I'll stick to mine until something dramatic happens to make me think otherwise. A string of spoons was unpalatable, not unforseeable.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

so I'm a few years out (I forgot about 88 with Melb i was thinking of 2000)

so does this mean Ayres changed the culture at Adelaide
Ken Judge change it at West coast
Walls changed it at Brisbane

It is a very very long bow to draw - dont care how you put it

Barass was past it when he was at the Swans and well on his way at Melbourne and going from 12th in 95 to GF in 96 was surely the work of Eade and is then radical coaching methods

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Actually Walls is credited with helping to change the brisbane Bears into an AFL unit and set the foundations for Matthews.

Ayers on the othere hand took over a team that was successful and still had a strong core but (like he did at geelong) failed to win the big one with that list.

To think the building of a great team is not sequential is foolish.

is Denis a great coach for Carlton? The last few years would tell us that he is not but

I hope he (with Hughes and everyone else) is helping to rebuild a list that was utterly shit as judged by just about every 'expert' going around when the penalties were handed down.

It amazes me that many expected us to have to rebuild over several years yet that cannot be a consideration when judging Denis.

Should he have done better? - I think so. Was it in the club's best interest that he did?

It will, however, be interesting now that he knows he must get results or he is gone. is this the first time he has been under that pressure at Carlton?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I think the key here is that we have just created this list. Yes we, know have some great talent at our disposal, but they are are very young and you can't expect the Murph's, Hartlett's, JK's and Bower's to lift this club by early next year. Pagan now has some talent at this disposal, I would like to see it begin to come to fruition this year. Realistically though, these new players will have an up and down year, and we can't expect much higher than 6-8 wins.