Danny he wasted two to three years trying for instant success - the rebuilding has only just started and that is only through the direction of the unwelcome president and the incompotent board

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

The difference between all those coaches mentioned and Dennis' record at North is simple. Those coaches inherited a good young list and Dennis built his. That's what makes hi 7 prelim finals remarkable no matter when it was done

Whether Carey was the coach or not, it matters squat. Akermanis was exactly the same at Brisbane - a 1st class asshole, yet Matthews was more than happy to put up with his sh1t. Amazing what a few losses will do to the squad . I'll bet my last cent Matthews won't be coaching in 2008.

The best 6 do not compare at the moment. Maybe for potential in a couple of years time we might get there but we are miles behind on this calculation for starters. Look at the All-australian stats and you'll see the difference straight away. As for Davis and Crouch, they have both represented Australia. If Wiggins ever gets near an australian jersey i'll laugh.

People seriously over-rate individuals on our list and then blame Pagan for not getting more wins. On every indicator our list is poorer than sydney and was back in 2002 and 2003. Sydney missed the finals once but had the core of a good team then added Hall. We had a wooden spoon team in 2002, lost a core of senior players AND were unable to draft properly for 2 years.

_________________
In WADA we trust

Clem, you're kidding, right?

Hall - 29
Kirk - 30
Olaughlin - 29
Barry - 29
Jolly - 25
Goodes - 26

Fev - 25
Stevens - 26
Thornton - 22
Murphy - 19
Walker - 20
Simpson - 22

now, if we're not smacking these blokes in 2 years I'll be pissed, but to compare the teams over the past 4 years is unbelievable.

Still, nothing surprises me on TC anymore.

Fevola's the only one of those 6 who'd compare with theirs. None of the other 5 would even come close, including Stevens on his 2006 performance. We don't have a ruckman comparable to Jolly. Interesting you haven't included our B&F.

didnt we play finals in 2001 , 2000 and even a GF in 99 and yes sydney just added Hall - We added Mick Martyn

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Forget about what Paul Roos is doing. Ask yourself, has Denis Pagan performed as an elite coach?
Do our players appear to recognise opposition set ups and set plays and are ours of a comparable standard?
Have we fostered leadership within the list?
Do our players make the correct decisions whan they have control of the ball?
Do our players appear to understand our forward structure and what to do when our forwards have flooded back?
Has Pagan managed our list and developed our players to your satisfaction?
Do our players appear to understand our gamestyle and how to react when the opposition get on a roll?
Does the coach have some responsibility in the failure of youngsters to perform or is it all the recruiters fault?

_________________
Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

il est un entraîneur pauvre qui apparaît avoir perdu les joueurs

No to all questions...Grant Thomas would tick more of those boxes....and most of us viewed him as second rate....

_________________
"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Ah stop it Dannyboy. Don't you realise that you have to argue that Pagan is either our saviour on earth, or the anti-christ? There is no in between. It's either all his own fault, or none of his fault at all.

It doesn't matter what sort of list you have, a "good" coach will foster such a great team spirit that they will overcome all. A "bad" coach is entirely at the mercy of his list. A champion list and they'll win is despite him, but a terrible list and it's all his fault.

It's amazing how many will lay all the blame for our 3 spoons at Pagans feet, yet in the same post cry that he was really just a passenger at North. The number of people re-interpreting events to suit their own preconceived ideas is laughable.

You are kidding yourself if you think that drafting kids at pick 60+ would have had us in much of a different situation today.

You can't waste what you don't have.

11th, 15th and two spoons....at 650K a year......nothing to interpret really.....you have a reasonable intelligent bloke like Barnaby French who has some life experience losing interest and wanting out....Thornton and Russell both trying to flee the club......is it unreasonable to interpret that Denis has lost sections of the player group and hasnt achieved suitable results and its time for a change?...
Rebuilding you say...I didnt expect we would be at lock up stage but Denis is still stuffing around trying to get the foundations in place....time for a new builder.....

_________________
"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Give it another year. I want 1 and 2 in the next ND then we will really have the basis of a gun side for some young coach to take over. If we sack DP at the end of 07, which I expect will happen, then hopefully we will interview applicants rather than just appointing someone. Can anyone remember the last time Carlton interviewed a number of people for the coaching job? I can't. I don't think we ever have, certainly not in my memory

I'm no football scholar, but I'd say on the whole no. We seem to be tactically inferior to most teams.

That said how often do you see a losing team and think "wow, great game plan. amazing strategies"? Almost never I'd say. When a lot of your team is being beaten one on one, it's pretty hard to make good decisions going forward. Players look indecisive, when in fact they just don't have anyone at all to kick to.



I'd say we have a good group of young leaders emerging, but we have a distinct lack of senior, top line players with great leadership. But looking at our list I don't think any of our 25+ year old players really had potential to be the leader we need.



Player development is very hard to judge. How much of it is governed by player ability and how much by the way they are trained is difficult. I'd say the majority of our youngsters have developed pretty well. There are probably as many success stories as failures, which would be par for the course.

List management is tricky. In hindsight it's been poor. Obviously too many retreads, not enough kids. But we've kept nearly all our high draft picks, and the retreads have come from the lower picks. How much value would we have gotten from those picks? Impossible to know.



Both have a responsability.

Overall, if we had a side exhibiting a gameplan that held up under pressure, countered opposition strategies and functioned week in, week out we'd be playing finals. You can't consistently display those things and not win games. Teams don't win the tactical and strategical battles and get thumped. Those teams win more than they lose.

If all it took was a great coach to make the above happen, then we would be playing finals under a different coach. I doubt it. I don't think any coach would have taken our list to the finals the last two years. Too many weaknesses, not enough top line players.

In the end, I think we could have got more value out of a different coach. But I doubt that under another coach, we'd be answering a resounding yes to all your questions above.

You mean like St Kilda - look where that's got 'em.

They're funnier than we are.

I reckon if we don't exceed 6 wins and some competetive games, Pagan should move on, and we should appoint in true blues fashion right out of our arse.

Longmire would be awesome mid to late year if we need to change.

Yes you are right we wouldn't want anyone like clint Bartram, Aaron Davey or even Danye Pearce on out list would we . not when you can have guys like Martyn, Chambers longmuir and Saddington . How stupid of me to even think of it

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

My post wasn't an endorsement of Denis, just poking fun at some of the rediculous arguments going on here.

Denis may have failed. But it still doesn't mean that everything bad that has happened over his time at the club is entirely his fault, as some others are trying to make out.

It's easier to pick a certainty of the Melbourne Cup field than draft an AFL player.


Under your rules McPhee, Jolly, Scotland, Stevens etc etc wouldn't be considered?

No one has ever argued that Mordon - What the arguement is with Denis is the amount of money he is being paid for the out put he is acheiving and in his time at Carlton the club has gone backwards and this cant be argued .

We all know he didnt have the greatest of list
We all know he had draft penalties - just like Melbourne and Essendon* had
But these are just excuses if he was the coach that he is being paid to be we should have seen major improvements - not this bottom out to draft the best talent and wait for it to happen - anyone can do that

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Mick Martyn wouldnt be exactly Melb Cup standard.......an old gelding who needed the curtain pulled around him and put out of his misery would be more applicable....ditto for Saddington..
Longmuir and Chambers are more your midweek country meeting type runners..... a long way from Group 1 standard...

_________________
"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen