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Blue Vain
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:37 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 18086
Mordan wrote:
[I'm no football scholar, but I'd say on the whole no. We seem to be tactically inferior to most teams.

That said how often do you see a losing team and think "wow, great game plan. amazing strategies"? Almost never I'd say. When a lot of your team is being beaten one on one, it's pretty hard to make good decisions going forward. Players look indecisive, when in fact they just don't have anyone at all to kick to.


Interestingly, most opposition teams wont play us man on man, when teams engage us one on one, we perform well.
It's when teams use different set ups and tactics that we fall apart. :wink:

Funny that. 8)

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Dukes
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:41 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Location: Within the old Carlton recruting zone ...
Sydney Blue wrote:
Dukes wrote:
CarltonClem wrote:
If you look at the Swans best 6 - Hall, Goodes, O'Loughlin, Barry, Jolly, Kirk. - we're not that far behind - Fevola, Stevens, Thornton, Murphy, Walker, Simpson - it's our 17-22 players that are lacking. Sydney's worst players in their 2005/06 sides has been Nick Davis, arguably Jared Crouch - neither of these players are poor, but neither are they stars.


The best 6 do not compare at the moment. Maybe for potential in a couple of years time we might get there but we are miles behind on this calculation for starters. Look at the All-australian stats and you'll see the difference straight away. As for Davis and Crouch, they have both represented Australia. If Wiggins ever gets near an australian jersey i'll laugh.

People seriously over-rate individuals on our list and then blame Pagan for not getting more wins. On every indicator our list is poorer than sydney and was back in 2002 and 2003. Sydney missed the finals once but had the core of a good team then added Hall. We had a wooden spoon team in 2002, lost a core of senior players AND were unable to draft properly for 2 years.


didnt we play finals in 2001 , 2000 and even a GF in 99 and yes sydney just added Hall - We added Mick Martyn


Pagan inherited a wooden spoon team.

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Sydney Blue
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:41 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
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The Duke wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
BlueLife wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Danny he wasted two to three years trying for instant success - the rebuilding has only just started and that is only through the direction of the unwelcome president and the incompotent board


You are kidding yourself if you think that drafting kids at pick 60+ would have had us in much of a different situation today.

You can't waste what you don't have.


Yes you are right we wouldn't want anyone like clint Bartram, Aaron Davey or even Danye Pearce on out list would we . not when you can have guys like Martyn, Chambers longmuir and Saddington . How stupid of me to even think of it


:lol:

It's easier to pick a certainty of the Melbourne Cup field than draft an AFL player.
:roll:

Under your rules McPhee, Jolly, Scotland, Stevens etc etc wouldn't be considered?


I will grant you it is difficult to assess how a 18 year old kid will turn out but you dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out that guys getting 10 or 11 games at their clubs now and who have been in the system for 4 to 5 years plus are going to be

Mcphee was a fremantle stuff up
Jolly was a need for a second string ruckman
Scotland isn't exactly a game breaker though serviceable in a Camporeale type role
And Stevens was a gift from Williams not exactly a recruiting coo

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jim
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:42 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 8232
Mordan wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
Actually Walls is credited with helping to change the brisbane Bears into an AFL unit and set the foundations for Matthews.

Ayers on the othere hand took over a team that was successful and still had a strong core but (like he did at geelong) failed to win the big one with that list.

To think the building of a great team is not sequential is foolish.

is Denis a great coach for Carlton? The last few years would tell us that he is not but

I hope he (with Hughes and everyone else) is helping to rebuild a list that was utterly shit as judged by just about every 'expert' going around when the penalties were handed down.

It amazes me that many expected us to have to rebuild over several years yet that cannot be a consideration when judging Denis.

Should he have done better? - I think so. Was it in the club's best interest that he did?

It will, however, be interesting now that he knows he must get results or he is gone. is this the first time he has been under that pressure at Carlton?


Ah stop it Dannyboy. Don't you realise that you have to argue that Pagan is either our saviour on earth, or the anti-christ? There is no in between. It's either all his own fault, or none of his fault at all.

It doesn't matter what sort of list you have, a "good" coach will foster such a great team spirit that they will overcome all. A "bad" coach is entirely at the mercy of his list. A champion list and they'll win is despite him, but a terrible list and it's all his fault.

It's amazing how many will lay all the blame for our 3 spoons at Pagans feet, yet in the same post cry that he was really just a passenger at North. The number of people re-interpreting events to suit their own preconceived ideas is laughable.


The key to a good coach is to get his team play to their potential. Same in any sport. Is this team playing to it's potential, whatever it is, and is he getting the most out of them playing with passion and spirit. The answer is no. We have a better list than people imagine. While certainly not a premiership list, if you map it out you'll see it's a better team than the wins we got this year, worse than last year's embarrassment. What's happens when a coach loses the players.

Dannyboy, again, makes some good points. Keeps us" pro's" and "anti's" in perspective.
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Mordan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:43 pm 
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Trevor Keogh

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:55 pm
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Sydney Blue wrote:
No one has ever argued that Mordon - What the arguement is with Denis is the amount of money he is being paid for the out put he is acheiving and in his time at Carlton the club has gone backwards and this cant be argued .

We all know he didnt have the greatest of list
We all know he had draft penalties - just like Melbourne and Essendon* had
But these are just excuses if he was the coach that he is being paid to be we should have seen major improvements - not this bottom out to draft the best talent and wait for it to happen - anyone can do that


I don't understand this argument. How does how much you pay someone govern their output? You could double my salary, and it doesn't make me twice the worker I am now.

I wouldn't be happy with substandard coaching from a coach earning 100k/year.
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Mordan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:50 pm 
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Trevor Keogh

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Blue Vain wrote:
Mordan wrote:
[I'm no football scholar, but I'd say on the whole no. We seem to be tactically inferior to most teams.

That said how often do you see a losing team and think "wow, great game plan. amazing strategies"? Almost never I'd say. When a lot of your team is being beaten one on one, it's pretty hard to make good decisions going forward. Players look indecisive, when in fact they just don't have anyone at all to kick to.


Interestingly, most opposition teams wont play us man on man, when teams engage us one on one, we perform well.
It's when teams use different set ups and tactics that we fall apart. :wink:

Funny that. 8)


Yep, as I said I think that as a team we're tactically inferior to most.

Are you saying that you believe man for man we're better than most teams? Where do you think another coach would have had us the last two years?
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jim
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:01 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 8232
Dukes wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Dukes wrote:
CarltonClem wrote:
If you look at the Swans best 6 - Hall, Goodes, O'Loughlin, Barry, Jolly, Kirk. - we're not that far behind - Fevola, Stevens, Thornton, Murphy, Walker, Simpson - it's our 17-22 players that are lacking. Sydney's worst players in their 2005/06 sides has been Nick Davis, arguably Jared Crouch - neither of these players are poor, but neither are they stars.


The best 6 do not compare at the moment. Maybe for potential in a couple of years time we might get there but we are miles behind on this calculation for starters. Look at the All-australian stats and you'll see the difference straight away. As for Davis and Crouch, they have both represented Australia. If Wiggins ever gets near an australian jersey i'll laugh.

People seriously over-rate individuals on our list and then blame Pagan for not getting more wins. On every indicator our list is poorer than sydney and was back in 2002 and 2003. Sydney missed the finals once but had the core of a good team then added Hall. We had a wooden spoon team in 2002, lost a core of senior players AND were unable to draft properly for 2 years.


didnt we play finals in 2001 , 2000 and even a GF in 99 and yes sydney just added Hall - We added Mick Martyn


Pagan inherited a wooden spoon team.
And 4 years later we're still spooners with one less win. And we pay $600,000 a year for the priviledge. Our team is better than 2 years ago when we won 10 games but for some reason we seem to get worse.
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Blue Vain
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:03 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
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Mordan wrote:
Are you saying that you believe man for man we're better than most teams?


Nice try but no cigar. :lol:

I think talent wise, we can compete with most teams. The 60 point plus beatings are more a case of tactical/structural ineptitude as anything else.

Mordan wrote:
Where do you think another coach would have had us the last two years?


I've given my view on this many times. How many wins we have are virtually irrelevant.
If Pagan had embraced rebuilding, shown an understanding of the modern game and demonstrated an ability to teach the players tactics and structures to further their development, I would have supported him.

In my opinion, he has shown an inability to understand or counter many of our opponents tactics or to implement any meaningful set ups of our own. Not only is he struggling personally but he is therefore compromising the development of our youngsters.
Wins are secondary. Giving our players every opportunity to be their best is his job.
He has failed dismally IMHO.

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The Duke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:08 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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The other important fact that DP inherited apart from a crap list and draft penalties, was a blowout of TPP.

No wonder we had to move blokes on at the end of their contracts - we had no money.

How could we offer Ratten, McKay, Bradley, Hickmott etc additional contracts when we couldn't pay the existing ones?
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Blue Vain
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:10 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
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The Duke wrote:
The other important fact that DP inherited apart from a crap list and draft penalties, was a blowout of TPP.

No wonder we had to move blokes on at the end of their contracts - we had no money.

How could we offer Ratten, McKay, Bradley, Hickmott etc additional contracts when we couldn't pay the existing ones?


They took paycuts Duke. You're clutching at straws as usual. :lol:

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The Duke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:23 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Blue Vain wrote:
The Duke wrote:
The other important fact that DP inherited apart from a crap list and draft penalties, was a blowout of TPP.

No wonder we had to move blokes on at the end of their contracts - we had no money.

How could we offer Ratten, McKay, Bradley, Hickmott etc additional contracts when we couldn't pay the existing ones?


They took paycuts Duke. You're clutching at straws as usual. :lol:


It's common knowledge, BV, that we were on 100% of TPP until last year. I know they took cuts, but at what expense would they have been signed up again for?

Those cuts brought us DOWN to 100% not 90%.

They were excess baggage that we couldn't afford to keep, and had to be cut free so we could start the climb up.

Generally speaking, it takes 2 years for a player to develop to any sort of consistancy. All those players drafted between pick one and pick whatever our first pick was, are now playing regular senior footy.

This is the reson why we haven't made ground since 2004 - not the coaching staff.

Luckily for us, those two drafts were weak compared to the 05/06 lot.
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Mordan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:23 pm 
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Trevor Keogh

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Blue Vain wrote:
Mordan wrote:
Are you saying that you believe man for man we're better than most teams?


Nice try but no cigar. :lol:

I think talent wise, we can compete with most teams. The 60 point plus beatings are more a case of tactical/structural ineptitude as anything else.

Mordan wrote:
Where do you think another coach would have had us the last two years?


I've given my view on this many times. How many wins we have are virtually irrelevant.
If Pagan had embraced rebuilding, shown an understanding of the modern game and demonstrated an ability to teach the players tactics and structures to further their development, I would have supported him.

In my opinion, he has shown an inability to understand or counter many of our opponents tactics or to implement any meaningful set ups of our own. Not only is he struggling personally but he is therefore compromising the development of our youngsters.
Wins are secondary. Giving our players every opportunity to be their best is his job.
He has failed dismally IMHO.


Pretty much agree with that. However I still doubt you'd have seen many more wins than we got over the last two years. And I don't think you'd see many examples of a tactically great team when they were losing most weeks.
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CarltonClem
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:15 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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It could be argued that we had terrible injuries in 2002 - which finally unveiled we had a poor list in terms of depth.

But that still doesn't excuse Pagan's ineptitude when it comes to developing the list. Why are there some players who in their 4th year, still aren't particularly consistent. I'm talking Waite in particular.

It's clear that some of you think Carlton is bad because Pagan has had a poor hand dealt to him. That's partly true. But the same lot of you argue that he has had absolutely nothing to do with how poorly we have done.

Am I right?

Do you Pagan lovers actually concede that Pagan has made some serious mistakes in the last 4 years?

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dannyboy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:21 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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only if you agree that a rose by any other name is still a rose.

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The Duke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:34 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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I don't know whether I want to be known as a Pagan lover....eeeeeuuwww :oops:

....but Serious? - No

Mistakes? - Yes.

I reckon he de-listed blokes like Hulme, franchina, Johnson too soon. Maybe they thought we were further developed than we were.

As for a game day strategy, you could clearly see this year that many games the boys stuck to a task and stayed in the contest for a long time. Eventually their legs gave out and the floodgates opened (Vs WC and Collingwood for example).

Not recruiting a ruckman would be considered a mistake, but given our deficiencies in the midfield and defense - understandable.

When you've only got 3-5 picks PA to replace 30 odd players, it's hard to know where to start.

For these reasons I can forgive him for where we've been, but expect to go somewhere pretty good, very soon.
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CarltonClem
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:40 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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I thought the reason we lost against WCE this year was because we panicked and put numbers behind the ball. :roll:

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frank dardew
 Post subject: Loss to West Coast
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:51 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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I thought we lost to West Coast because they are bloody good 8)
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dannyboy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:51 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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why did we panic?

oh and raise you two :roll: :roll:

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The Duke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:53 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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I think they were coming at us for a good quarter and a bit and we flooded for 10-15minutes.

Anyway, isn't that 'the modern game'?

If it wasn't for the spanking we got in sydney, everyone would be far, far happier with the way we finished the year.

Most people said we were on the right track, you get a spanking interstate by the reigning premiers (and future runners up) and all of a sudden we've been set back 3 years :? .
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frank dardew
 Post subject: Panic
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:58 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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I think we did panic -we had forgotten how to win and our inexperience let them in
Having said all that if we played like that in a few other games last year we would have won so wasnt too unhappy that day -played probably better than in the 3 games we won last season
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