Thought we had that in the 2nd Q last week (sparked by the 2 you mention). But it quickly disappeared.

Carlton Clem & BV,

Top points. I was actually waiting for somebody to bring that up!

Fully aggree with you that our confidence is shot to shit. But who's responsibility is it to restore that confidence within ourselves?

And how is Walker supposed to gather confidence? By sitting on the bench for half the game and copping shit from fans and media the following day for not doing enough?

Davies confidence? Brought back in - dropped the next week?

Bannister? Damn this kid must be confused as all hell!

Setanta? "Yes Satanta, we believe in you.................provided it's only for 15min a game!"

DeLuca, one kick in 90min of football last week, 4 kick in 80min the week before. That aint due to a lack of confidence, that's just lazy! Now if i was Setanta or even Bryan for that matter, i'd be thinking, " Cool - i might get a shot in the team this week!" But no!
What does that do for anybody's confidence.

Look, i'm not throwing all the blame on Dennis, but i just think it is unfair onthe players when they cop all the crap for ths team being where it is! Specially when the players have to read reports like
"Dennis Pagan is doing the best he can with a list full of rejects"
or
"Carlton, the worst list in the leauge"
& ect, ect, ect!

Thats probably the biggest gripe I have against Dennis ATM, he just doesn't give the kids enough opportunity when they come into the side. 15mins per game is useless. It doesn't give them a chance to prove themselves or more importantly to learn the tricks of the trade. They might as well supply the oranges at quarter time. Tim Watson made a good point on SEN during the week. He said that "when he was coach, he would promote a kid to the seniors and give them at least two weeks in the senior side. He would also say to that player to not worry about the first game, wheteher he made mistakes etc..". I think we should adopt something like this, especially when there are so many senior players underperforming this year.

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

The last half of the second quarter i thought Pagan had turned the corner and said enough is enough, the young kids are our future I'll throw tem all on the ball. Turned out i was wrong, as we didn't see Bentick, Walker, Simmo in the middle again.

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

The feeling I get is that Denis game plan is one that the club personnel as it is right now just doesnt have the bodies and level of skill to play properly and be successful at. Whenever Denis talks about limited talent at the club - this is effectively code for the effects of the draft penalties.

I also think that the players know all this themselves.

They try for Denis, but they know that they are not sufficiently equipped to succeed at football in the way that he demands it to be played.

Maybe this creates a mindset among the players in which theyhave significant confidence issues, but are too apprehensive to confront the issue. This translates into the skill errors and mental approach problems that we see on the field.

Im certainly no expert, but thats the feeling that I get.

I dont think he is a bad coach, but maybe the players would feel more comfortable and inclined to perform batter with a different player coach dynamic.

For example, what about the player coach relationship between the Geelong players and Mark Thompson? He has had a bad year or two with the cats, but seems to have got the best out of his players in a very quiet effective way. They have also recuited well despite not finishing really low on the ladder..

Im not suggesting that we get rid of Denis, he does have a lot of plusses, for example, despite some of our foreign legionnot perfrming as well in their second year at the club as they might have done, the recruiting we have done under the draft cap penalties I think has been very good.

However, maybe there are some negative player/coach issues there ahich are hindering rather then helping us.

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My Blue Heaven

You really have to wonder what is going on in that coaches box and how they could not get this side up in this game against a team that has just come off a hiding off the Hawks( dont tell the hawks have a better list)
Questions Denis
Why when Robbo slaughtered Teague in th WC do you line him up on him today and dont move him until he has 5 ???????
Why if you new Neitz was playing was Livo sitting in the stands ????
Why when you made the move in the 2nd 1/4 to put the young blokes in the middle did you change it at 1/2 time
why do our players look so lost. We are talking about guys who all their life have been playing football they were the best in their local leagues why is it they now look as if they dont know what they are doing ?????
They honestly have not got a clue they don't know wether to peel off . provide a shepard , fly for a mark or stay down - so basically they do nothing .
Pagan Lovers you can talk lists and players abilities but these guys dont do the basics and are lost this comes down to the coaching
I am shattered

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

SPOT ON!

I don't want piss weak excuses such as "Oh, the players are down on confidence!" Well Dennis, i'm sorry - but that's YOUR responsibilty to restore it!
Game plan ain't working Dennis! Hasn't worked all year!

Infact, the games that we have won this year has not come of good coaching........it's come from the players, the same ones you say are down on confidence, taking risks and placing the game in their own hands.

Me thinks that is what happened again today in the final qtr!

People don't seem to understand logic.

***The game plan is play direct football, kick the ball long to a target rather than over-possessing with short passes.***

Since when has Denis just said "just bomb it in long, say 10 Hail Marys and hope for the best"? That's what the players are doing. But you blame the coach because you think he says that. But the truth is, he DOESN'T!

I think some of the players have the intelligence of some of the posters here who cannot comprehend the fact that the gameplan does not say "kick it long to a contest always" which is what some of you are saying. Denis has always pointed out that his instructions were not followed and it's clear the players aren't doing it.

The first 3 quarters, we got the ball at HB, then we mucked around with it and refused to run in numbers to create overlaps etc. Then the HF line refused to present an option, Waite tried but didn't do it all day. And when they did present, it was usually to HFF rather than towards the ball carrier. This is not in the Pagan doctrine - play up the CORRIDOR!!!

In the last quarter, we were allowed to show the world what the gameplan actually is and what results it can achieve. How was it done?

- Players started to hit targets
- Players played more down the corridor rather than going down the wing.
- Players had more confidence and ran the ball and ran in more numbers in order to create the overlap and be able to kick long to the forward's advantage with plenty of F50 space.
- Players started to get the ball into the F50 more quickly

The basic tenets of Pagan's gameplan are you move the ball into the F50 quickly and not allow the opponents to be able to crowd the HB line. You go up the corridor as much as possible until you enter the F50 where you kick to a leading forward. Only if you have nothing do you kick it to the top of the square. But that's the difference. There's more pressure applied to the top of the square than at the CHF position. Get the ball in deep into the F50, not just 45m out from goal. You give the opposition defence less room to work with if you get in deep. Most of our F50 entries the last few weeks have been shallow - only going in 35-40m out from goal.

Another problem with the last few weeks is we've entered F50 not only shallowly but also gone in way too slowly and ended up having to enter F50 from the flanks and wing which means that we open up the other side of the ground for the rebound.

There are a lot of players playing for themselves out there. Pagan's style is reliant on good team football. Blocking the opponent so that the player with the ball can run through HB and through the middle and spot a target deep in the F50. This is simply not happening.

Blaming the coach is simply ridiculous when players are not intelligent enough to understand what is really quite a simple game plan and not much different to what Leigh Matthews used to win 3 premierships as Brisbane.

One last thing. Remember school footy - what do they tell you? If you have nothing to kick to, do you kick long to a contest or short to a contest?

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

He was quoted as saying that a few weeks ago when the media were asking his opinion on the possibility of introducing new rules for 'Flooding problems'.

He said...........'What problems? Get the ball and bomb it in.......no problem!'

Which is ironic if you see how bad we were flodding today!

That's NOT what he said Ryan.

http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/real ... m=storyrhs



He doesn't say "bomb it in".

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Robertson is underated...is more than a highlight reel of speccy's...he has improved and is one of the better small marking forwards. Its an area we struggle to contain...my guess is that Denis gave Teague the chance to redeem himself....bit like he did with Wiggins V Didak after Didak cut him up in a wizzer cup game.
After two hammerings you wouldnt be trying it again..Robertson is too quick for Teague and more than a handful in the air.....

Denis Pagan is down on confidence as much as the players which is understandable..I thought the last quarter showed the coach and players still have some pride and I reckon he may change his style a bit this week ...my game plan with what we have would be a forward line of Fevola and Betts and everyone else well up the ground and out of the way..and no way would my prime ball mover in Stevens be kicking the ball out from FB....

Sack Pagan! is a predictable response if we finish in the bottom four, but Carlton aren't Richmond,Footscray and to a lesser extent Hawthorn. Sides that were poorly coached last year and have enough talent if the pieces are moved correctly to finish in the 8.
Denis is polishing a turd and after that brilliant pre-game speech the blame has to rest with the players. If Pagan is sacked (after being re-signed ) there is no Wallace or Eade available who could straight away fill the breach and have the side perform any better.We have 1 A-grade player and 4 senior players who are 29 and older. So concieveably the side will be worse after Kouta, Lappin,Campo and French retire over the next 2-3 years. So Pagan is coaching better than any other coach could do with an ageing and talentless list. His hands were tied, when Elliott recruited him thinking he'd be building a side from the bottom up with draft picks.
Carlton supporters just have to exercise some patience, suck it up as Wallsy correctly noted and it will eventually be right on the night!

Either way, His game plan is to focused on just 'Getting' the ball inside 50! Don't tell me it's not either because it's been going on all year.

Note what he said carefully.



How deep do we normally penetrate the F50? Answer that.

I think you'd find that we very rarely get the ball in 0-30 out but more like 30-50 out and therein lies the problem.

How slow do we transfer from HB to midfield before banging it long? Precisely. We're TOO SLOW, as Denis has said. so the opposition midfielders have gone back to create extra numbers at the contest. And when we finally get it into F50 we're at a disadvantage.

If we got it in nice and quick then our forwards would be one-out more often and with a half-decent forward set up you're going to win them either by taking the mark or by making the defence panic and give up a free kick.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

So Pagan is polishing a turd. The players are not following his instructions hey. Pagan was left with a poor list . Well bugger me but didn't our great Messiah delist some 31 players in the last 2 years. If he is polishing a turd it happens to be his own.
CC i have been hearing this crap about the players not following Pagans gameplan now for 2 1/2 years and sadly we are going to be hearing this crap for a few more years to come because the club could not afford the 1.5 mill to get rid of him.
It amazes me that Wallace , Eade , clarkson and Neil Craig can walk into sides with crap lists and turn there fortunes around but our Messiah cant even get the boys up for one of the most important games in the clubs History.
I've followed this side for all my life and I can tell when things are not right in the club and for the side to perform the way they have in the last 3 weeks says to me that something is not right.
In future years we are going to be asking what was Elliotts worst crime.
1. Building the Legend stand and nearly sending the club broke
2 Breaking the salary cap and costing us draft picks and a 1 mill fine
Or
3 Bringing Pagan to the club

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I dont think that Pagans tenure is the cause of our problems. He is doing the best he can with what he has got.

Mostre treads fall over, we had a reasonable year in 2004, but then second year itis set in.

If Pagan culls again this year, he will get more players prepared to play his way and we will be stronger for it.

Without his strategic planning in 2003/4, we would be even worse than we are now.

Id say his plans for 2005/6 are pretty much in draft form now. If he finally gets the players able to do the job he asks for.then we are going really well think.

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My Blue Heaven

re-signing Pagan is the Collins administrations verson of the Legends Stand.

All that money for very little return.

Right now, a hack like Brittain could be doing the job and using up a hell of a lot less money, or which we don't have much of anyway.

So because we are getting it inside 50 around about 30-50mtrs rather than 0-30mtrs, thats the result of our problem. Sorry, but i just can't believe that.

Look, i have my reservations in regards to DP taticts and my feelings are that whilst everybody is quick to blame the players, responsibility by the Coaching Staff (appologies - i should include the whole staff and not just DP) must be taken soon!

But really, before i start a shit fight, i might put this argument on the backburner for a while and let DP (hopefully) proove me wrong!

I think Dennis is doing the best he can with what he has got. I must say I was bitterly disappointed with the performance of some of our senior players today and if I had my way some players would not represent us again. Dennis can't kick the ball for them and he can't make them think during the play and these are two of the basic problems we seem to encounter each week.

Each week the coach and MC talk about blocking the holes and setting up to defend from free kicks into our backline and yet some of our players can't seem to grasp the idea. Early in the game the demons marked the ball on the wing half forward area. The Demon players all moved out of the area on the opposite side of the ground inside the forward 50 arc. A Blues player was filling the hole so his Demons opponent moved into the forward 50 and then jogged back to the wing and the Blues player followed him and the demons then kicked to that space and Neitz led into the area and marked. It was so obvious but there was nothing the coach can do about it until it is too late. Maybe he can pull the player aside at training and go over it but it was too late as Neitz went back and scored a goal.

One player broke out of the centre square swung onto his left and passed to the left forward pocket straight to a Demon defender when Fev was leading to what they call the Right (fat) side of the ground. Nothing the coach can do about that. It was either a skill or vision issue.

I don't know if some of our players are injured or carrying an injuries but today some of them seemed to not be able to keep pace with their opponents. As for our tackling it was deplorable. I forget how many times over the last few weeks when we have grabbed opponents but not been able to bring them down or even slow them.

Unlike Brittain, Pagan isn't mortgaging our future by trading picks for duds. Brittain has more responsibility for the present quality of our list than Pagan with his drafting of duds and foot soldiers.
Has Brittain been re-signed as an assistant coach after helping take Richmond to a spoon last year?