A Question For Synbad

Elwood Blues1 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:10 am **Posts:** 4827

Re: Draft Camp......I dont see why not..invite kids who didnt get invited who you reckon may be potential recruits...run your own tests.
I wouldnt advertise it to other clubs etc....maybe the AFL wouldnt like it especially if you could convince kids who wanted to play for you to attend and not go to the official version. I guess it could be seen as draft tampering perhaps....wonder if some clubs tell potential draftees to stuff up at the draft camp and put some of the other clubs off...

GWS · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 4:30 pm

Sydney Blue wrote:

While we are talking Hypothetical questions just say we do finish last and get a PP and 1st pick would anyone consider trading these to get Goddard and Wells . We would still have pick 17 and first pick in the PSD .

Wells in a flash... :shock:

In fact we could start a campaign called "Get Wells Soon"...

Goddard I think will be a very good footbnaller when he gets a coach but as for whether you'd trade a top pick for him - depends on who else is in the draft.

bosman · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 4:32 pm

Sydney Blue wrote:

While we are talking Hypothetical questions just say we do finish last and get a PP and 1st pick would anyone consider trading these to get Goddard and Wells . We would still have pick 17 and first pick in the PSD .

Wells for #2 only and keep #1..

gerry atric · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am **Posts:** 2125

For the most part we've made a mess of drafting. Obviously if you have the first pick you will get the most likely guy. Maybe you go for Hodge because he has the body size to step straight in after you've swapped a favourite in Croad for the pick. You overlook Ball because he's smaller and may take longer to develop and Judd because he's had dodgy shoulders. Judd turns into a once in a generation player but Ball is great and so is Hodge after a couple of years of OP. Recruiters get it wrong because there are so many variables. Tiges thought Fiora was better potential than Pavlich. Bombers took Bolton at 4, we took Livo. If you're looking for diamonds in the rough - TBird. Not drafted just rookied. How can that happen. Obviously you want the best pick you can get. I can't quite understand the debate on tanking. We're the worst in the league, we don't need to tank to get the spoon. Deliberate tanking can really destroy the fabric of a team, hurting confidence etc. But we just need to rest injured players, so their injuries don't become permanent, and try young players, and try to lift confidence, try and get guys looking like they actually enjoy the game instead of looking terrified that they'll make a mistake. On talent we ain't going to win to many from now on in.

nightcrawler · **Joined:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:48 am **Posts:** 2891

dannyboy wrote:

So bye bye culture - look where it got us (umm 16 F@%&#! flags is where it got us!)

A less charitable person than myself may be tempted to argue that an extremely large cheque book got us the majority of those flags. That it was using the system, and we were quite prepared to do it, and we clapped and cheered them the entire way because it meant we won. And because we won it lured other great players to the club and created the "winning culture" that you're so proud of .... so much so, that we closed our eyes and clapped and cheered when it wasn't the system anymore and they were still doing it.

But obviously some forms of using the system are less distasteful than others ...

Jarusa · **Joined:** Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:00 am **Posts:** 23123

nightcrawler wrote:

dannyboy wrote:

So bye bye culture - look where it got us (umm 16 F@%&#! flags is where it got us!)

A less charitable person than myself may be tempted to argue that an extremely large cheque book got us the majority of those flags. That was using the system, and we were quite prepared to do it, and we clapped and cheered them the entire way because it meant we won. And because we won it lured other great players to the club and created the "winning culture" that you're so proud of .... so much so, that we closed our eyes and clapped and cheered when it wasn't the system anymore and they were still doing it.

But obviously some forms of using the system are less distasteful than others ...

So all the other clubs were sitting back doing nothing??

Every trick in the book was used back in pre-draft days, by every club. Money was a factor, not just at Carlton either, but not always the over-riding one.

All the other clubs were in no way innocent bystanders.

BlueMark · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 5:44 pm

Spent a pleasant afternoon with a recruiter froma VFL club ( I took a personal today) I asked him about the draft.

This is in short what he told me.

He said you can pick the best kids on the planet but it is what happens at the club that is the most important. How they are developed and how hard they are willing to work to step up to the next level. That is why clubs place a lot of weight on 'attitude'.

He said that playing for picks was dangerous as there where no guarantees. More than one 1st round pick has been average (Livo) or barely plays any games (Angwin)

He said that you can recruit the gun junior but as it takes 4 to 5 years for them to develop (Judd aside) it is the support players that get you to a premiership and his veiw that it is in this area that clubs have to be more careful and discerning.

Reckons Carltons probelm is that our second tier has fallen away and that there is a general lack of confidence amongst the group. Highlighted Richmond as a team that supposedly had a 'shit' list that is currently playing weel mainly due to belief. Said all great teams have to have a large dose of self belief.

Synbad regards going to games. Haven't seen you at the Bullies games of late.

Seems the formula is Recruiting+Development+Confidence

While Synbads method certainly maximises the first part of the equation not sure if it addressing the second two parts that well.

Rod Waddell · **Joined:** Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:49 am **Posts:** 1651

nightcrawler wrote:

dannyboy wrote:

So bye bye culture - look where it got us (umm 16 F@%&#! flags is where it got us!)

A less charitable person than myself may be tempted to argue that an extremely large cheque book got us the majority of those flags. That it was using the system, and we were quite prepared to do it, and we clapped and cheered them the entire way because it meant we won. And because we won it lured other great players to the club and created the "winning culture" that you're so proud of .... so much so, that we closed our eyes and clapped and cheered when it wasn't the system anymore and they were still doing it.

But obviously some forms of using the system are less distasteful than others ...

Don't be so daft NC. The majority of those flags bar our last 2 (arguably) were not via the cheque book. The 79, 81 & 82 flags were built on the back of some great recruiting of young kids - Buckley, Harmes, Sheldon, Johnno, M Young, P Francis, P Brown, Marcou, Glascott, English etc.

Throw in 1-2 interstate recruits a year and hey presto you have a winning combination - Fitzpatrick, Hunter, Buzz, Maylin, etc.

dannyboy · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 6:06 pm

yes and that cheque book argument is such a load of tripe - what collingwood didn't? gee how silly of them.

What Essendon* didn't

Are you say but thats just the rich clubs.

Then do a look at Diamond Jim Tilbruk (?) for Melbourne - the Dees tried buying players but gee wizz they failed dismally - might have something to do with their culture.

Now richmond's a god case - had money and players and then, well fell into an almighty heap quite frankly - gee should have been easy for them.

St Kilda has plenty of good players and even good sides but they had a [REDACTED] culture down there, nothing to do with money,a lot to do with drugs and beer etc.

Okay Fitzroy yes, but once upon a time they were fine, what happened/ Egg and chicken argument there.

Sth Melbourne - well yes, sad basket case so i'll give you that one.

Roos - well okay they were [REDACTED] until they got money and a sweet, sweet 10 year rule from the VFL (even then they wanted to shaft some of us) and then they out bought the lot of us.

And the biggie, the absolute monster of them all - what the @#$%&! about Hawthorn - what about their brilliant sides raight rhough the 70's, 80's etc. How did they do that if it was all about just money you simplistic dick!

Gee maybe there are a few other things working here besides money - now if you wish to think carelton were only good because of money (which is what flower from crappy performing sides would have you belive, or tools like p. Smith who hates out guts) then go ahead and denigrate but in my mind that means you miss the whole point of this @#$%&! club!!!!

GWS · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 6:09 pm

BlueMark wrote:

Seems the formula is Recruiting+Development+Confidence

While Synbads method certainly maximises the first part of the equation not sure if it addressing the second two parts that well.

Come on Mark - you're not that stupid and you know it (I think :shock:

)

Without wanting to speak for Synbad I'll speak for myself (and I reckon he might agree) that there's no denying that a bit of self-belief and good development are utterly essential but without part A of your equation there's not a lot of point.

Those people peddling the "but if we start losing too many games we might develop a losing culture" garbage should take a look at the Tiges - years of losing doesn't seemed to have stopped them turning it around pretty quickly.

The point is - without the elite talent to begin with you might make the top 6 but your chances off going all the way are greatly reduced.

Start with the talent, develop that talent and your second tier and the confidence will follow.

All three are necessary - no doubt about it - but without starting with the talent you'll never go all the way.

pj_canus · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:37 pm **Posts:** 161

tap in 79 wrote:

pj canus - but the point is that even with a top 4 pick one can make a clear mistake.

.

That is my point! There are good players here lasting even in the most recent drafts that are lasting well beyond PP territory.

tap in 79 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:58 am **Posts:** 2143

Dannyboy, some supporters from other clubs would have you believe that Buckenara went to Hawthorn just for charity....
"only Carlton paid big money for players."

He wasn't offered any money whatsoever - same with Platten. they both went cause they liked the look of glenferrie oval.

The fact was that the hawks recruiters did their homework and were doing whatever necessary to get them to hawkland.

I think Carlton may have improved in recruiting good players over the last little while

eg bentick and carazzo. i believe carazzo has it - he has only played a handful of games and has real guts. people complain about his disposal skills... how many games has he played ? 15 ?

verbs · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 6:22 pm

Richmond have pretty much an identical record to us. Last made the finals in 2001. Gained a wooden spoon and won 18 games in three years thereafter (compared to our 17).

Hardly a prolonged period of being down in the dumps.

dannyboy · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 6:30 pm

and they haven't won the damn thing yet!!!!!

Can we not hold up the clubs that have yet to do a damn thing.

gee we made a GF in 99 when did Richmond?

so lets just wait and see about them and others shall we.

It seems for years everyone was holding Carlton up and poo pooing the Richmonds St Kilda, now its time to hold them up? have they won anything yet? Whne they do hold 'em up but until then let's just keep a bit of perspective here!

My point with hawthorn is that no one questions how they won their flags - well I bet they a) spent money on players b) had a strong culture and c) played to win!

You still don't get it GWS. No one is saying if we come bottom we'll become a pack of losers (or however you want to put it) but I'll tell you this one of the things that I absolutely hated about Elliott is that he always looked to do things the easy way. This is a dangerous mindset.

Work hard lads, play hard, and if you're still crap then so be it, but lets not go soft in the head, in our ideals or in the history of this club - or does all that have to be rewritten also just to push this stupid PP barrow that so piled how with shit its in danger of wobblying out of control.

We all know we need talent but its whether we should lie down and beg for it or play hard and take what comes our way. I'll take the latter... 9and hope that in playing to our absolute best we still get the P.P. :lol:

)

camel · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 6:40 pm

Kaptain Kouta wrote:

Now, I know that we're lacking quality throughout the field, but consider this:

Let's say hypothetically:
â€¢ We have a weak forward line, an ok midfield, but a top rate, best-in-the-league back half.
â€¢ The best draftee pick is a KPP backman.
â€¢ We end up last (remember this is a hypothetical) because while we are ok defensively, we just can't kick winning scores.

Would we automatically pick #1 simply because we can, or would we pick the BEST AVAILABLE forward, even if the player we get is ranked 5-10ish, and start replenishing our stocks that way.

If that's the case, then isn't the concept of who is #1, #10, #50 somewhat of an academic exercise, as it all will depend on what's necessary, not only to us, but to other teams as well, and that means this year included.

Let's let the season end first before we start counting chickens.

IMO you take the BEST PLAYER available, if he's a backman so be it, if he's a midfielder so be it, if he's a forward so be it. Any team will find a place for the Judd/Riewoldt types. Pick the BEST player with your BEST pick(s), then start to tailor to your needs from the second round onwards I reckon.

camel · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 6:43 pm

dannyboy wrote:

Really Synbad the point is we need to try as hard as we can and finish wherever we should finish. If that's without a priority pick then I'll take that because the alternative is to not try... and that is the beginning of the end no matter how many bullshit sugary twirls you put on it.

I'm right behind you dannyboy.

Kaptain Kouta · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:41 pm **Posts:** 63509

dannyboy wrote:

...one of the things that I absolutely hated about Elliott is that he always looked to do things the easy way. This is a dangerous mindset.

Hear, hear.

And, what's more...

Playing soft, lying down, tanking, whatever you want to call it is taking the easy way. The idea that "oh well, we're having a bad year this year, but we'll lie down and get picks 1 and 2 or 3 at the end of the year, and she'll be right is just as dangerous a mindset as patching up "Because Carlton never rebuilds."

Playing for PPs is this decade's version of chequebook recruiting.

Tractor Boy · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 7:14 pm

Kaptain Kouta wrote:

[quote="dannyboy
Playing for PPs is this decade's version of chequebook recruiting.

Correct !!!!!!! Well said !!! Give the man a cigar and put this one to rest i say !!!!

Deano Supremo · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 7:15 pm

Kaptain Kouta wrote:

dannyboy wrote:

...one of the things that I absolutely hated about Elliott is that he always looked to do things the easy way. This is a dangerous mindset.

Hear, hear.

And, what's more...

Playing soft, lying down, tanking, whatever you want to call it is taking the easy way. The idea that "oh well, we're having a bad year this year, but we'll lie down and get picks 1 and 2 or 3 at the end of the year, and she'll be right is just as dangerous a mindset as patching up "Because Carlton never rebuilds."

Playing for PPs is this decade's version of chequebook recruiting.

SHIT YEAH.

Stick your priority picks. The two years that we 'earnt' priority picks were, for those of you with a short memory, F*CKING SHITHOUSE. Never again.

Kaptain Kouta · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:41 pm **Posts:** 63509

Thank you, Deano. I feel better now I got the big fella in my corner... :wink:

A Question For Synbad

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