EXACTLY!!! THATS WHY THERE WAS NO REASON TO GET SO MANY!!!!

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We had no choice in the matter.
Would you have drafted a bunch of kids and sent them to the wolves every week or draft a bunch of recycled players who you know, due to reasearch and interviews, will give you a red hot crack every week?

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Exactly

We rotated those recycled players through the team last year. We didnt' need to do that. Everytime Clarke was in the firsts he put-in. Playing Clarke instead of Johnson everyweek, wouldn't have made a bucketload of difference

Red-hot cracks are meaningless from a 23 year old player with no future. We had enough senior players to not have to play 10 17 year olds.

We would have lost more games, but at least we'd see a few new faces around this time.... and we wouldn't be staring at another spoon with minimal young talent... especially with tall blokes.

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But we wouldnt get good young talent with pick 50+

Brad Fisher
Bret Thornton
Karl Norman
Ryan Houlihan
Aaron Hamill
Shane Tuck
Aaron Sandilands
Chad Fletcher
Mark Williams

should I go on??

Of course I'm not saying they're ALL good... but... you CAN get talent with late picks.. and we HAVE.

Worst case scenario, they all turn out to be crap, and we delist them all after 2 years

AND WE'RE IN THE SAME POSITION WE'RE IN NOW ANYWAY!!!!!

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60 Collingwood JULIAN ROWE
(OAKLEIGH CHARGERS) Medium, outside midfielder who finds space well. Kicks the ball accurately on both sides and is a clean ball handler. Athletic type who is strong overhead. Vic Metro u18 representative in 2003. From Carey Old Boys F.C. 25/05/1985 187 72.5
61 Brisbane Lions MICHAEL RISCHITELLI
(WESTERN JETS) Lightly built wingman who is good over-reach and strong at the ball. 8/01/1986 181 70
70 Richmond BRENT HARTIGAN
(CALDER CANNONS) Small defender/midfielder who won best & fairest in Premiership year. Smart reader of the play. 7/04/1985

3 blokes we might have been LUCKY to pick as teenagers. (FOR EXAMPLE)

Hartigan played a bit last year, Rowe has played a fair few games now for Collingwood, and Rischitelli debuted a few weeks back for Brisbane.

Lets not forget we got DeLuca (maybe a good pick???) in that lot, and Bentick and Carrazzo in the rookie draft.... and Davey was picked in that rookie draft..... AND McQualter missed out.

As I said... no certainties in this.. but you roll the dice.

Better to roll it on an unknown quantity with youth/development on his side, than someone with clear/proven limitations.

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Couldn't we have drafted Rischitelli under F/S via Robert Klomp?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing Tyrant. After any draft there'll always be "we should've done this and that", but at the time I don't think too many people were unhappy with the decisions Pagan made. Kids are barely given 5 minutes to prove themselves these days as the modern supporter is so impatient. We see one kid cement his place at a young age a la Judd and we expect all 18 year olds to do the same. It just doesn't happen. We had, and still have a dearth of talented players in the mid-20s. Pagan got rid of a lot of dead wood and tried to replace them with players with at least some senior experience. Maybe we could have done things slightly better, but I'd be happy to defend Pagan's theory for his first two drafts at Carlton for a very long time.

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FFS - the Club was (and still is) in great financial strife and had great problems attracting sponsors and had hardly any FTA or Friday night. Being respectable last year was very important in the context of actually surviving as a club.

Leave him alone!!! ALL OF YOU!!!

I was always reasonably happy with the 2003 trades (yes, hindsight..etc etc.. probably wouldnt swap for Johnson etc now... but...), but disappointed with the draft.

I'm disappointed with our trades last year.... (Chambers/Longmuir), happy with the draft.

I often feel the club have done the wrong them, but am happy to go along with it and hope for the best.

My point is not that we shouldn't have gotten competitve players form other clubs, but rather, we got TOO MANY at the expense of youth.

FFS - our results last year would have not been effected overly so.

You've got to get a certain number of kids in every draft. At least 3 (pref 4) in each National, and then as many as you can in the Rookie.

Bare minimum, we shouldn't have picked Bannister and Bowyer, and shouldn't have traded for Chambers and Longmuir.

As someone (GWS?) said, no one is beyond criticism. I haven't said "BURN PAGAN BURN".. rather, that hindsight has proven that was a poor strategy.

We should adopt the strategy that EVERY draft pick is sacred and not to be wasted.

Raso was pick 70-something last year, and PJ has just said in another post that he will be a star.

Imagine if we'd had the foresight to pick McQualter instead of Bannister?

OF COURSE we might have picked 2 dud kids.. but we picked 2 dud adults instead....

You've got to be in it to win it though

EVERY PICK IS SACRED, EVEN THE LATE ONES

(and we, as Carlton people, should believe that better than anyone)

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I think it was Hughes policy at Freo to try to pick an lower age player late in the draft instead of trying to draft him next year.

Some players who could have been picked late but went high the next year:
Pavlich
Hasleby
Meesen
Mini

FFS - how can you criticise pagan? - He is the messiah! Who are you to question his role as coach? What have you achieved in footy? - In case you didnt realise it, our ladder position is solely due to those talentless hacks on our list. Dont you realise that we have dont have any players in the 23-29 yo category?

Thats the typical blind crap from posters that annoys me - conveniently overlooks the fact that
1. Pagan actually got rid of all the players in the 23-29 yo category in the first place
2. Pagan then brought in a whole host of recycles (as opposed to youth), many of which have now been found wanting
3. If we remain where we are on the ladder (I dont think we will btw), then by the end of the season Pagan will have presided over 2 of the 3 worst seasons in the clubs history (arguably the 2 worst given injuries would be nowhere near 2002).
4. 3 seasons in, there is more talk of players refusing to listen to the coach
5. We perform at sub-standard levels way too often - I'm not talking wins and losses, rather its the seeiming lack of effort and defensive pressure. It wouldnt bother me one bit if we had a team of 'hacks' that lose each week provided they always put in 100% effort/commitment
6. Match day tactics are often questionable, as is selection (consistent dropping of some players, lack of game time for others, whereas others have a lot more lattitude)
7. Talk of Pagans coaching record conveniently overlooks the fact that he had 10-15 10 year players in the 90s, most of which were obtained outside of the conventional 'draft' system that we had now. Included in that list are several 300 game players (martyn, king), a couple of 250+ gamers, arguably one of the best players in the modern era (carey) and one of the toughest (archer). It wouldnt be too much to suggest that even grant thomas would do well with that list.
8. 3 years down the track, we are no longer looking forward - instead its now fashionable to look for excuses in the past whilst selectively overlooking the mistakes that have been made.

I'm not calling for Pagan's head - I dont think anyone is. No coach should be sacked mid tenure (which is why brittains sacking was distasteful) - given that we have re-signed Pagan to 2007 we have to put up with it. However, putting up with the coach does NOT mean that he cant come under the same scrutiny as the players. Arguably the scrutiny should be greater if we have the same 'problems' several years down the track

Denis wont bother with match day moves unless theyre doing whats asked of them,.,,

Whats the point of shifting players around if theyre not tackling/ shepherding/ hitting targets???

Denis obviously in my opinion has a few obstacles at the moment and precious few answers.

Dont know what he would have to do to motivate players to do the basics.

Isnt a chance at playing for the greatest AFL club enough???

We have too many softcocks..
and even if some of them played better and we won a couple of games more...( because theyre happy).. theyre not going to be a good side.
Its a soft list on talent and its soft mentally.

Theyre falling apart at the seams for one reason or another...it might be Denis.. it might be because some of the older players are bitching and its eating away at the others..
Either way we have Denis for another 3 years and Denis wont be scxared to swing the axe some more and bring players in who ARE prepared to do whats needed to be winners long term.

In my opinion we have to start from scratch and bring in players who have leadership qualities as well as future champions.

We have too many dumb footballers who want to think for themselves... unfortunately theyre better off with Denis thinking for them and they just dont know it.

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Synbad - I've seen your POV several times and I understand what it is you are trying to say.

The issue I have with it is that - if our players arent sheherding and tackling (note, I'm NOT including disposal here) then who's responsibility is it? If it was his first year as coach, I could accept that it might be players - 3 years down the track, if its still 'the players' then its a concern. If its not, the players, then it a concern all the same.

As I said in my previous post - its not talent on the list that bothers me atm - its what I see as the lack of 100% commitment to the jumper. I can live with the former (albeit grudgingly) but wont accept sub-standard performances.

In terms of mental strength, there are 2 schools of thought here - that the mental capacities of players can be changed to a degree, or that we need to find people who are better mentally. I suspect its somewhere in the middle.
If its the former, then what efforts is the club doing to improve the mental strength of players? - have we looked at sports psychologists? motivational speakers? team building exercises? thought coaches?
And if it is the latter (ie mental processes cant be changed), then we should trade mentally weak players whilst they are near optimal trade value (ie Fev) given that they cant be improved.

I reckon you cant teach good disposal to players who dont have it.
I reckon you cant teach mental toughness to those that dont have it.

Sure both can improve but its not the same.

Shoe me a player who was a shithouse kick and became an excellent kick under pressure??(field player)
Show me a player who was soft and became a tiger.

The club has to start recruiting mental toughies... like Hamill.. Archer. Voss...

The best players are mentally tough and can play at a very high level.


We do have a few mentally tough players but not enough.
Even if Setantas skills are never 100% up to scratch.. youd never let him go for that reason alone. ..

You can never imagine him dropping his head or thinking its all too hard...
Any guy that leaves a career at Hurling (even as an amateur) at the highest level to go overseas and start from scratch is one tough bastard.

Hes our leading goal kicker for the Bullants....
You look at Pleming/Norman ... and Bryan.. and a few others and then at Setanta and you have to shake your head

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agree on setanta - he looked good. The other thing that I liked about him was that he had no hesitation in taking in what mitchell said to him in the 3 quarter time address.

I think skills can be 'taught' - though that depends on 3 factors - the amount of effort put in by the player in question, age (easier to learn things when you are younger) and confidence (which can make skills 'appear').

field kicking and handballing are largely mechanical procedures - so the key to improvement there is repitition (practise) in order to build the movements into the memory such that it becomes second nature. Its not much different from learning to drive a car or top level food preparation (slicing and dicing at high speeds without losing fingers). There are however some footy skills that rely on other aspects that are a lot harder to 'learn' such as marking and being able to spot up players (vision) - these rely more heavily on the individual's judgement than the mechanical aspects of the action (hence fisher's worth to the team)

id still love to find a guy who was a shithouse kick under pressure who improved to the point he didnt turn the ball over alot.
In my opinion unless theyre a Key position player who is an unbelievable mark... i wouldnt bother...
Key position players take a few set shots.. which means that thenm they can rely on the mechanics.. ala Tredrea...
Its different on the field.. you look at Stevens and Fev and then at the others... theyre miles away....and not improving.

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Some excellent thoughts being tossed around in this thread. You can teach skills but the player must want to learn. Without the right attitude NOTHING productive will happen. I'm sure we have all seen the guys with talents but no heart. I agree Synbad - if they are soft they will always be soft, conversely a hard nut (read Hickmont) are just that. No, we don't have enough of those players. I will be very interested to see who remains on our list at the end of the season. Mental toughness is such a subjective area. It involves personal committment to take oneself to unfamiliar and risky territory. Can you make a player run that extra metre to man up, shepherd, fill the hole? No, but if they don't, there is no room for them in the side. I wonder if our coaching staff follow that through. Last week on the replay so many targets were missed so our present predicament is primarily skill based no doubt. But.... there so many soft players out there, poor protection of the ball carrier, being pushed off the ball minimal pressure and lack of desire to take blokes on. Previous threads talk about having a "presence" on the field - we go missing. Our leadership group just does not have that element in any form (bar Kouta but that is not his game and never will be).
I do believe there is an element of coaching accountability and that must happen. Pagan does not have the players so it will be fascinating to see what happens over the next 5 months.
Still I will be listening on line tomorrw and wishing like bloody hell that at the very least we have a dip (and hit some intended targets!!)
Go Blues!

different game but I picked up basketball (social at uni) when I was about 20 odd - not coming from a sporting background my passing and shooting were appalling - with a bit of effort I improved to the point that I could hit shots consistently from just inside the 3 point arc. Not saying I'm a world beater or anything close but you can improve skills. I hadnt touched a basketball in aboue 4-5 years (uni friends all graduated) though last week I picked up a basketball and had a few shots at the gym - first 30 or so shots were mainly airballs - by the end of the session I was hitting 80% of my shots from inside the 3 point arc (no one guarding as I was just shooting around) - edit -this last bit is what I meant by building the mechasnical action into memory

It can be done, but you have to be willing to put in a fair bit of effort