don't get me wrong I loved Fitzy as a leader - thought he was fantastic. Not sure about champion player though. Still that was during my drinking period

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Hamill may have left in the end frank and it may have been about money but money was like a pissing comp at Carlton back then...EVERYONE GOT MONEY!!!!.. if you didnt get money you were a flower...or your dad played for Carlton ....

Hamill was a product of this club...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

An absolutly fantastic post by the doyen of TC.Spot on Frank and anyone who says otherwise is talking complete and utter tripe.Dont miss the vermin one bit.

_________________
All my dangerous friends

With the present circumstances of the club and its position on the malthouse premiership clock there is no evidence that he would be a better leader than either and given everyone thinks campo is shocking as a leader why would his best mate be any better in the circumstances
Do you really reckon with his history for going for cash he would have taken a pay cut so that Carlton could get under the cap in 2003 like many did -
Moreover how many games has he played this year and last about as many as kouta as well so its not as if he is always on the park either
If he has been so influential at stkilda why with the best list in the AFL havent they won a premiership in the last 3 years and if he was such a brilliant captain why did thomas continue with crap rotation policy of captaincy
And as for everyone thinking hamill is great thats fine too - everyone thinks crawfords great and he was an ordinary leader -everyone now seems to like spida too s so is spida everett but he isnt captain either

Dannyboy drunk or sober, it is simple - Mike Fitzpatrick was a champion.

As for Hamill mentoring the Saints young players - he's doing a fantastic job. My they are producing new captains every bloody year

Yes he was a product of the club -they nurtured him when he was a boy at 17 coming from Canberra and looked after him when a bit wild and wayward in the early years - gave him the honour of no 4 guernsey and then walked out on us for money- fine football is now a business and players have to look after themselves - my beef with HIM IS not that he took the money what I cant stand is the hypocrisy about why he left he is never honest about why he left and conveniently blames elliott for leaving and never confirmed that he signed the stat dec

.I am no fan of elliott - being one of the first to sign petition to get rid of him- brittain parkin and sos are also no fan of elliott but are all united in one thing that hamill left for money

This is still my drinking period DB......

_________________
Princes Park - always was, always will be.

he wouldnt have taken a pay cut but he would have stayed back for the kids.. he would have bowled over some bodies in the games he did play in. he would have always given it 100%.... he would have made those around him walk taller...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Next years captain Luke Ball is a gun captain in the making..

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Some of you have stated that this is a good topic, I'm sorry, but I reckon this is a sh*t topic (no offence dannyboy). The only good thing to come out the 5 pages so far (apart from Franks' passionate thoughts) is this from Pat's Fitzpatrick:

Brilliant Pat, I was only 13 at the time so cannot remember this game, you had me on the edge of my seat.

Hamill is a money-hungry c*nt, I will never forgive him for leaving our great club - i don't care about the Elliott saga. We supported him for 4 years after drafting him late, we took the AFL to court to allow him to play in the 1999 grand final, we gave him the famous #4 in 2000 - he owed US, not the other way around.

I'm sorry, but I'm with Verbs on this, what is the f*cking point of this post - where is it getting us in 2005. NOWHERE - I'd rather a post about who our next captain is rather than this tripe!!!

well pardon me for not writing ewhat you want you sanctimonious drop kick - just write your own dribble and I'll write mine, and if I find your stuff broing crap well I just STOP reading it you inane little boy!

No offense - well sorry, no offense meant Luca bubbles but I really couldn't give a cat's fart what you think (or what little amount of thinking you do). But hey, no offense, its just well, so what's your point again - oh that's right you'd lie us to find a Captain. Gee, hmmm, maybe we must ensure we don;t make mistakes of the past again hmm, na couldn't be anything in that, nor wondering how a club like carlton found itself without great leaders after Stick and SOS retired, hmmm but let's not think about that too painful for a strong forward looking seer like Lucaduca, forget the past, that's history let's invade Russia, that'll be easier!

hey that was fun!

No offense

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Oooh nice patsfitztrick, shiver.

Me? Methinks Hamill's 'leaderhsip' has much to do with a media construction. The Hun loves to peddle that sort of shite. Same TFC etc etc. I'd expect he show leadership at training. He's not on the field enough to have an impact anymore.

_________________
This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

You all have it wrong - what we need to rebuild this club is priority picks - therefore for the next three years we need to finish last - only one man can steer us in that direction -
Ryan Houlihan

- If all the players playing under him followed his example - shirked contests - ran around the outside - didn't go for the hard ball and celebrated goals when we were 60 points down then that would really ensure the best quality young players entering the club for the next few seasons.

Troy Longmuir for VC because he has no presence on a football field and would do a similair job to Ryan in his absence.

_________________
Ecclesiastes 1:4, "One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but The Blues abide forever."

Hamill's "leadership" is far outweighed by his lack of output - both by not playing games, and not actually performing when he does manage to get out there.

He may make others "walk taller" but that can only carry you so far. He needs to kick a goal or two now and then (he's never kicked a bag) and do more than run around bumping into blokes. Did he ever perform well in a big game or final for Carlton? No!

_________________

************************************************************
NOW YOU'RE JUST SOME CLUB THAT I USED TO KNOW.

Franks absolutely spot on!

My overall view of the thread however can be summed up by saying,
"If your Auntie had balls she would be your Uncle"!

Forget the what ifs,the sooner we deal with the present situation and find a REAL Captain to suit the moment the better the Club will be!

yet players and ex-players (rather than the media) always rate him highly. I find their enthusism for him interesting because I never really rated him and thought he was just a player - but players who know far more about the game than me rate him - why?

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Thought he did OK in the 99 PF.

Interesting topic, certainly not useless. It highlights our leadership deficiencies at the moment. Hamill was a good leader for them in 03, and wasn't too bad last year. He lifted the performance of the Aints kiddies. Whether he would do so here is another question.

I do tend to agree a little that the point is moot and we should look forward, but it's by no means a stupid topic.

_________________
Cer 'ch 'n alluog Blues

Arguably yes. 2000 final versus the Lions. Hamill kicked 7 on Craig Bolton who was playing for the Lions at the time.

Yes but as we move forward I just wanted to raise the point that a club needs several options no one can forsee what will eventuate and, mor eimportantly, that we need a strong leader who will go in to bat for his teammates - something we haven't had since Sticks retired.

And surely it is important to evaluate what are the attributes of a leader in this time when leadershipo is what we lack.

And that the best player doesn't neccessarily make the best captain or the lesser player a worse captain.

For example some of the names tossed up around ehre are based purely on performance. T-Bird good player not a captain. Stevo - I have serious doubts but will keep an open mind, Fev ? Waite?

What are we looking for?

Have we looked at the wrong things in the past?

Can we avoid the same mistake again?

You cannot move forward without evaluating the past - and by that I don't mean being all angry at Hamill - really who cares? What i wanted to examine was leadership qualities and our current lack of them. And why.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Agree we should learn from the past my posts were seeking to debunk the myth that hamill is a great leader or any better than kouta in any case but also highlighting the continuing hypocrisy of hamill
Because hamill uses Black Jack as a fall guy no one cares or is neutral imagine how up in arms people would be if hamill was using Collo as his fall guy for leaving some posters would be hysterical.
Moreover everyone has a crack at campo and lance for taking the money and fair enough - yet hamill effectively took the money and more and held the club over a barrell -yet he is a good leader
Given he and campo were best mates why do anyone think he would be not a similar leader to campo