CC - going to have to pick u up on that one. Have a look through our entire playing list (excluding first year players) and tell me how many of them are playing consistently near their potential or could be said to be having 'good' seasons. The only ones in my list atm would be french, kouta, livingston, waite and possibly whitnall (barely). IMHO stevens doesnt make the list (and if he did, it would be another barely) though I would probably put clarke/bowyer in ahead of him. Out of 30 or so players (not counting rookies etc), to have only 4 or 5 players playing near potential consistently isnt good enough. If you disagree, then your more than welcome to come up with your own list of players.

Campo seems to be the current 'favourite' atm, but there are a lot of players underperforming to a greater extent than him (forget salary for a moment). If it was just whitnall and campo underperforming, then by all means scrutinise them harshly. However, when its the majority of the list that has underperformed, then the coach that should be scrutinised heavily. Yet, why dont I see you or others doing so? (aside from a few that have jumped on board recently).

On Pagan - forget the fact that we had penalties, I'm not talking about win/loss ratios here but over player performance relative to potential and player development. Isnt that the role of the coach? - to get the best out of what he has got? - Do you think Pagan is doing that? I raised this issue a few weeks ago and all I got back was some vague comment about players being mentally weak - Given that this malaise seems to be affecting the majority of the playing list (and particularly this season), do u not think that can be addressed? and who's role is it to ensure that players are mentally 'right'? - individually, its the player, as a collective group though, its the coach.

Salary and campo's performance - its basically a pointless discussion given that we dont know the exact details of the contract and its all based on rumours and innuendo atm. The only thing that we know for certain is that the contract has been backloaded (apparently heavily). Given these 2 facts (that we know no specifics and that the contract is backloaded), is it even reasonably to speculate on a players performance relative to the rumoured final year salary amount? (especially given that this amount seems to be inflated by 50k every month or so).

Would it not be fairer to take an objective view on a players performance relative to ability? If so, why is 'golden boy' nick stevens escaping scrutiny - this season, stevens appears to commit blatant skill errors at least 3-4times/game. For a player that is supposedly on 500k (again unbased rumour) and said to be one of the most skilled players in the club (not so much rumour), he does seem to be spared the micrscope a fair bit. Especially given the number of cheap posessions that he collects running past players - and as for the supposed 'waxing' - stevens seems to do this just as much as any other player. Perhaps one thing that may excuse stevens is that he has been playing under duress (knee etc) - but my understanding of things is that campo has also been playing under duress (knee etc). So where exactly is the difference?

My entire post is quite simple and raises few points - the overall performance of the playing list relative to individual potential (and where responsibility for this lies), the separation of player renumeration and 'performance' (given that salary figures are purely speculative), and the issue of objective analysis of players (as opposed to 'favourites', using nick stevens as an example). If you disagree, I welcome you to point out the specifics in my post that you find erroneous or misleading.

Agree that there is something not right with so many players performing below expectation.

I mentioned some sort of dissent amongst the group a week or so back and got no response on this.

Anyone care to shed any light?

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NOW YOU'RE JUST SOME CLUB THAT I USED TO KNOW.

4thChicken, your post is rational, logical and reasonable.

Better watch yourself

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The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

Ronald Reagan

Your right, there lining there back pockets.
The difference is that Collo negotiates with himself (ala very Elliott like) while the others negotiate with Collo.

Like it or not Synbad, Whitnall, Campo & Kouta where payed what the market was demanding at the time of there contracts. Whinging about it now to increase your profile does nothing more than show your sookiiness and ignorance. There new contract will be "market" related again (you say this yourself), get over what they are earning because that is your only qualm, everything else is a smoke screen.

... please bring up the quote where I have stated this. Don't put words in my mouth.

As for you being hurt, couldn't give a toss. What was written was on the mark, that's your problem not mine.

I think the confidence levels are well down and they're not doing the 1% ers like shepherding and protecting the ball carrier. Some may be carrying injuries. They don't seem to be prepared to take risks, presumably because they fear stuffing up. But you're spot on 4thchicken and I've been disappointed with the skill levels of ALL our players including those who normally have excellent skills and can't really understand why they keep making basic skill errors.

Can we please stick to the discussion at hand without the name calling and stuff guys. It gets a bit old.

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I stole Sheedy's Gatorade...

So just for the record.

It's 100% certain that Camporeale and Whitnall will not be at the club next season?

As a side note: with Walker playing on the opposition’s most damaging midfielder. Do you not think this will help develop his game and that Pagan would prefer Walker than Campo to play this role?

It certainly didn't do any harm to the careers of Ling, K.Cornes and Kirk.

Noticed in the second half that Campo went to Jude Bolton. Regardless of the result. Did he ask for this role? Did he put his hand up? Did he say "Denis save the kids. Give me a crack at Jude?" or did Denis ask him?

Has he asked for a similar role this week? Aker? J.Brown? (Just Kidding) But do you know without speculating?

Synbad you’re certainly passionate about Carlton but some of your rants on Campo and Whitnall are far too driven by your own opinion of them and they quickly turn into a pot feast. Too much assumption and as I was trying to point out to CC because of your standing in the Carlton Internet Society most take your rants as gospel.

Whitnall for example. Has he really put on weight? Greg Williams said 2 weeks about on radio that he as the fittest that he as been in his whole career? You just posted that he can’t get his body right? It’s confussing?

Like it or lump it. This quote has to be close to the mark.

[quote]“Is it possible Synbad that your ever so slightly jaded view of Campo & Whitnall precludes you from seeing anything good that they add to the club.â€

Yes Stevens is playing with a medial strain like Campo.
Yet he is top 10 in the AFL for kicks, total disposals, rebound 50s and is number 1 in the AFL for uncontested ball gets.
He also is number 1 in the AFL for centre bounce clearances.
Not too bad for a player carrying an injury I would have thought.

He averages more tackles than Campo as well.
I would have thought "golden boy" is carrying more than his own weight at the moment.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

But that's the thing Blue Vain!

If Camporeale was up in the top 10 in disposals people on here would put it down to soft possessions from running past players on the half-back line! What a lot of people are saying and what I'm saying is that Campo simply can't win! He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Campo last year finished with 74 tackles which was the most at Carlton. Did he get any credit?

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Blues, I think he did. He got alot of credit, public acknowledgment from Pagan and all that. I think the feeling is that he's gone backwards this year, or reverted back to his original form. Tackle count down this year, quite noticeable really.

To be fair, there are those that will always see the negative in Campo but alot of us wax & wane, just like his form.

Chicko,

Re: Overall performance of the playing list

There is no doubt IMO that the list has underperformed somewhat. While we have glaring deficiencies, we could do better. I agree with your list of players who have been up to scratch – my list is French, Waite, Kouta and Thornton (barely), Stevens (barely).

Thornton has had an inordinate supply of opposition midfield ball flying in, his defensive work is still on par but his disposal has gone downhill, mainly because IMO, he’s trying hard to create but it hasn’t come off, players haven’t done what he’s asked them to do, i.e. present towards the ball carrier.

Stevens, as pointed out by BV, has performed well, but has had to carry a lone hand in the midfield pretty much. Key indicators like centre bounce clearances where we are desperately lacking show us that he is doing some serious grunt work.

Re: Remuneration and performance

Remuneration and performance, while speculative, I don’t believe has been a particularly key factor in my criticism of the said players. It has been one, that I acknowledge and stand by, but seniority is just as important in my opinion and I would assert that most of us would think the same; senior players (players who’ve played 150+ games or 10+ years like Camporeale, Kouta, Whitnall, Lappin etc., should be providing value to the club and team by doing things that are of more intangible value, things like leadership, encouragement, never being self-satisfied with the performance, mentoring younger players on the ground during the breaks. Also being seen to be selfless in putting their head over the ball when they need to, tackling strongly when the team needs a lift, things like that. Those things are not being demonstrated. Fevola is becoming a senior player and I think that he needs to start doing more of this as well.

Re: Objective analysis of players

Objectively normally means statistics. However, I think in football, this is sadly being used as an indicator to performance targets. Would you rather 6 uncontested marks in the back half or 4 contested marks up forward that resulted in shots on goal? Would you rather 20 kicks earned or 25 cheap kicks?

The alternative definition of objective, i.e., emotion-less I think I have been. From observation, I see that Camporeale gets a lot of kicks from handball receives running behind the ball carrier, I see a lot of Camporeale possessions that could and should have been gained further afield that would have been more damaging. Our precision into HF has been woeful and in years gone by, Camporeale would spear the ball to Whitnall, this has not happened for awhile now.

I accused Nick Stevens of playing for cheap possessions against one side a couple of weeks ago and said he was less culpable than Camporeale because he was doing his share of grunt work that Campo was not. That was my reason. I have no favourites (Thornton, Fisher and Waite excepted).

Re: Pagan and mental weakness

Roughly half of the players at the club now were recruited pre-Pagan. Excluding the 2002 draft only 18 of 38 were recruited prior to Pagan. The lackadaisical attitude to training and weights etc. that was part of the previous coaching regime and subsequent mental weakness and fragility under pressure of those players has meant that they have not been able to withstand the demands and pressure that Denis puts his teams under.

Given that most judges think that we overachieved last year, Denis did extremely well to do it with a list like last years. Why has it fallen over this year? Have the methods changed? You can take a horse to the water but you can’t make it drink. Character testing is extremely important, and it is little wonder that Geelong have gotten their list together like they have with relatively few high picks. They have picked people of good character. Unfortunately the retreads (Johnson, Bannister, Clarke etc.) were mainly picked on character and now with their footballing inadequacies showing, we have a relatively weak list.

I will concede that it is the coach’s job to motivate players but I also believe that the team must be united behind a particular goal and that unity must flow throughout the entire team from 1 through 38 on the list. At the moment I don’t see it happening, because the leadership doesn’t provide a strong enough structure in order for this unity to be built upon.

Feel free to debate with me, I hope this has been rational and feel free to disagree on any of these points.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Given the yin and the yang, is this the pointless thread gone mad?

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Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me

...mmmm, no we have to add something about Hamill...can we merge Dannyboy's thread with this one???

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“Every single element of the Club has to be the best in the league, meticulously and methodically, and only by doing this will we be elite and challenge for number 17.”
Greg Lee

Interesting thread. Fortunately hasn't got as out of hand as some similar. I get a bit sick of the 'overpaid, underperforming hack' mantra repeated ad infinitum, but like several posters, I expect value for money.

1. Can't really blame players for accepting large contracts. Previous admin are to blame.
2. But can expect players to play up to that level of salary, which, as has been pointed out is heavily backloaded and none of us seem to know what it is anyway.
3. Re leadership, not much point expecting another Kerna type leader in the near future. He was named capt of Team of Century - ie best in 100 years. Some people aren't born leaders. Maybe we made them leaders by default but if DP was unhappy with Campos leadership, don't make him VC. Agree that the culture of the club should be one that expects senior players to do a bit more at training than appears they are doing. (Again, would we expect the coach to accept any responsibility for how players train?)
4. Interesting that Andy Mckay (a leader who DP did rate) nominated Whit as his pick for skipper so he rated him
5. Maybe if DP had handled things differently he may not have caused so much resentment. He is coach not dictator. All coaches have to handle difficult players and situations and their ability to do so will define their capacity to succeed.
6. I think Whit is not capable of being the CHF DP wants. The coach needs to utilise players strengths (as Wallace and Eade do)
7. Aker is a great player (and better than Campo), but I reckon Campo would have gone alright for the Lions over the last 4 years.
8. They will get offered lesser contracts next year, that's a given.
9. If DP reckons they are so awful, he should drop them. Surely he's coaching for the clubs future and not just to avoid a spoon on his CV

molsey he got a lot of credit from Denis and people in and around the club I'm sure, I'm talking about people on here. It's pretty clear to me that there is an anti-Camporeale clique on TC with its own agenda. I think it goes beyond tackle count anyway. If he had 200 tackles this season it wouldn't make any difference to some. If Campo is doing that much wrong, why is he still playing? I highly doubt that Denis is 'scared' to drop him. Maybe behind closed doors, he deals with Campo, has a go at him etc. But if Campo is really struggling why is he still in the side? Denis must surely see something in him??

See I don't consider myself as a staunch 'pro-Campo' supporter. I get frustrated by him sometimes as well. It's just the fact that people can be so biased and so driven by agendas on here that pisses me off. Blue Vain (and I'm not suggesting that Blue Vain is necessarily an "anti-Campo") showed that Nick Stevens is in the top 10 in disposals in the league. Yet if Campo were in the same position (and as far as I can remember he's been up there in the past) it would be dismissed as a collection of soft, cheap disposals gathered on the half-back line. As if to imply that with Stevens all of his possessions were heroically gathered, in close, under pressure and damaging ones. It just reinforces the belief in my mind that although Campo is far from perfect, he just cannot win.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

These are the real stats from Sat's game from http://www.prowess.com.au/pro-stats/

cont ball gets ; uncont ball gets ; received balls
Campo: 3 ; 5 ; 6
Stevens: 0 ; 6 ; 9

What about tackles?
Carlton had 78 partial or completed tackles on Saturday.
Only one player had none.
Who was it?
I'll give you a hint, it wasnt Stevo, he had 5.

What about clearances. Campo had 1.
Stevens had 3 including 2 CB clearances.

If we're going to quote the stats, lets give the full picture.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Chose the day Stevens was in hospital during the week and should have missed the week prior to compare stats with Campo and Campo still lost..

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

The AFL site had Campo with one tackle and Digby and Thornton with zero. (2 tackles in 7 games for Thornton)

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