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The Man who shot Liberty vallance

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Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:55 am

Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 28377
Location: *Currently banned*

dannyboy wrote:

What are we looking for?

Have we looked at the wrong things in the past?

Can we avoid the same mistake again?

You cannot move forward without evaluating the past - and by that I don't mean being all angry at Hamill - really who cares? What i wanted to examine was leadership qualities and our current lack of them. And why.

Unfortunately, most likely due to my own poor comprehension skills, I didn't read that as the subtext or text of your original post. I was in no way saying the topic isn't worth discussing. I interpreted the topic as being "what if" rather than how can we use the past to not make the same mistakes in the future.

Despite StKilda's penchant for changing captains every year, a true leader will stand head and shoulders above the rest of the group and through sheer presence demand the captaincy throughout a long stretch of their career - Sticks, Voss, Hird, Buckley, Carey. Never were/have these players been challenged for the role such is their leadership (though Carey screwed up his post and slf destructed spectacularly). We need to be looking for someone with that aura -- until we have someone like that, do we take the Hawthorn path and appoint a Vandenberg?

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lucablue

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:55 am

Serge Silvagni

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:23 pm
Posts: 908

Quote:

well pardon me for not writing ewhat you want you sanctimonious drop kick - just write your own dribble and I'll write mine, and if I find your stuff broing crap well I just STOP reading it you inane little boy!

No offense - well sorry, no offense meant Luca bubbles but I really couldn't give a cat's fart what you think (or what little amount of thinking you do). But hey, no offense, its just well, so what's your point again - oh that's right you'd lie us to find a Captain. Gee, hmmm, maybe we must ensure we don;t make mistakes of the past again hmm, na couldn't be anything in that, nor wondering how a club like carlton found itself without great leaders after Stick and SOS retired, hmmm but let's not think about that too painful for a strong forward looking seer like Lucaduca, forget the past, that's history let's invade Russia, that'll be easier!

hey that was fun!

No offense

I'm sorry if my original post offended you, didn't think i got personal with you, just get annoyed with posts relating to hammill! I still do not think debating whether our deposed board did the right thing 5 years ago gets us anywhere!

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simonverbeek

Post subject: Re: Hamill

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:17 pm

Trevor Keogh

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:38 pm
Posts: 762

frank dardew wrote:

Please please get this right Hamill wanted to leave Carlton for the money-why would he have gone to a rabble like stkilda in 2001 if it wasnt for the money- half an hour before stkilda snaffled him he was going to the swans
He and Dave Allison got Aaron to sign a stat dec that if Carlton didnt trade him then he would go into pre season draft and we would have got nothing for him- good leadership and most honourable
Ask SOS Ratten Parkin Brittain how he left carlton and the reasons

BM as for Jack Elliott having a go at him what player didnt he have a go at when they wouldnt sign come on dont believe the guys revisionist history- jack was a prick but lets not lay the blame at his feet because Aaron wanted the cash- he wanted to be paid as a superstar and he wasnt one and did he deserve more than sos kouta ratten mckay lance campo or others of course he didnt
Remember the night blight got sacked poor aaron was in tears and had to have dave down to training to comfort him - good leadership
He wouldnt have been a captains boot lace at carlton he succeeded with limited output at the saints because they didnt have any leaders
As for lance and campo taking a pay cut bloody hamill just got a 5 year contract and preached to the other s about restraint in contract negotiations to keep the side together-once again good leadership
Interestingly lasty year the g train wasnt all that enamoured with what hamill was getting per year given he was getting as much as the g but his output was much worse on any benchmark

Happy for others to pine for him but never want him near my club again and until he tells the truth why he left he deserves to be treated as a pariah- captain material; yes at a second rate pony show not at my club that s won 16 premierships -with great captains as nicholls kernahan barrassi fitzy

Best post I've ever read on this website. 100% correct frank.

Big Jack is responsible for many of our ills, but in this instance he's hammil's scapegoat. Don't fall for it people. JE was a convenient excuse hiding the true reasons for hammil's departure ($$$$$$$$$$ - bastard).

If Queen Elizabeth II herself was Carlton president at the time and spoke to Hammil like a prince the prick still would have left.

_________________
They will know that they've been playing against the famous old dark blues

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AGRO

Post subject: Re: Hamill

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:11 pm

Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:00 pm
Posts: 24655
Location: Kaloyasena

simonverbeek wrote:

If Queen Elizabeth II herself was Carlton president at the time and spoke to Hammil like a prince the prick still would have left.

How did Her Majesty speak to Charles after he told her he was going ahead and marrying Camilla.??

_________________
"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

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dannyboy

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:23 pm

Ken Hunter

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:12 am
Posts: 10414
Location: Coburg

Oh get over Hamill - stones and all that!

Point is we do have a dearth of leaders.

Oh and Lucablue - I too was just making a point - just that saying 'no offense' is just about the most offensive thing to say, for me, it means you considered your response, decided it was (or could be) offensive and then decided to go ahead but with a sort of Pontius Pilot (hence the sactimonioius - sorry Mrs C :oops:

- barb) washing of the hands. See i was just trying to be offenseive and then say 'but no offense meant' showing that phrase doesn;t mean a damn thing.

Okay now that little bugbear is off my chest

I try and be good for at least a week. Mind you it is fun trying to be offensive without resorting to f%$#@ off! :lol:

So have we great leaders?

Do we need them?

And how did we get in this predicament?

Whether hamill went or not was JE's fault is irrelevant - what i am interested in is how so many of us could be so wrong (I think) in thinking Whits would make a better captain (all those years ago) than hamill.

Was it further proof that Carlton was in such an ebb it couldn't get anything right?

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

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chuma_1

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:24 pm

Bruce Comben

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:28 pm
Posts: 12

Hamill has matured since he left the Blues but when he was with us he played for himself.

Hamill's body is falling apart and will have a short career. I'm tipping he has to retire before the end of next year.

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dannyboy

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:33 pm

Ken Hunter

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:12 am
Posts: 10414
Location: Coburg

Played for himself??? fair dinkum i reckon we could give Collingwood a run for their monmey on the ability to rewrite history. We need honesty moving forward - in this Synabd and I agree (I think) and so i plan to search those past moments and re-examine them and see just how honest we are.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

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Elwood Blues1

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:37 pm

Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:10 am
Posts: 4827

Nothing fires Frank up more than a Hamill thread :lol:

he wrote the "bloody" word too which means he is angry..

While Hamill has improved as a player and has shown leadership at times at Stkilda you cant forget the reason why he left..money...most of us have had a go at Campo and Whitnall over the big bucks and if we are going to be consistent then Hamill has to be considered nothing more than a money grabber who isnt worth it....while I lament the loss of him and what he could bring to the playing list his character and mercanary approach are not what we need and Stkilda can have him...If Hamill had been Jonothan Brown would he have knocked back the I mill a year from Eddie and Collingwood...doubt it,,, he would have run for the money and couldnt care less about showing some loyalty and integrity....
Better off without him and anyone else who wants to screw the club for money when its not deserved...

_________________
"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

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chuma_1

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:11 pm

Bruce Comben

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:28 pm
Posts: 12

dannyboy wrote:

Played for himself???

Yes - he left for more money. He is a leader we could do with now, no denying that but at the time he was trying to establish himself financially and personal gain was put in front of the club and his team mates. Jack was the scapegoat.

Time to forget Hamill.

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BlueMark

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:12 pm

Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:39 am
Posts: 7507
Location: Within the Tao except when I am here.

There is a positive out of Hamills leaving. At least our 500 000 plus players re getting out on the park every week.

_________________
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

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budzy

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:38 pm

Wayne Johnston

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:17 am
Posts: 8128

We might end up with a "Hamill" type mercenary after this years PSD.
Wonder how we'll react to our No.1 PSD pick if he left his club over monetary issues. Hmmm....could he ever be captain?

Last edited by budzy on Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mrs Caz

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:40 pm

Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:47 am
Posts: 18288
Location: talkingcarlton.com

dannyboy wrote:

(hence the sactimonioius - sorry Mrs C :oops:

- barb)

Thank you danny.

dannyboy wrote:

So have we great leaders?

Do we need them?

And how did we get in this predicament?

No we don't.

Yes we do...desperately.

Buggered if I know, but the club certainly has had a few years seemingly floating without paddles or a rudder. The leadership issue must be addressed as a priority.

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Pickle

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:22 pm

Bob Chitty

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:10 am
Posts: 881
Location: Netherlands

Great thread dannyboy - it has certainly sparked a lot of interest in leadership which we all obviously believe is a huge concern.

I would like to focus on the future and pick up on what The Duke said on the first page. I don't believe you can 'recruit' a captain. It needs to come from within or at least 2-3 years with the club. I agree with The Duke in saying that Waite should be our next captain and Thornton and Stevens the vice-captains. Kouta has been great under the circumstances but is not a long term solution.

The culture of our club has changed so much over the last few years - a lot of it has to do with leadership in my opinion. There is a lot of bagging on this site of guys like Hird, Buckley and co. But these guys are inspirational IMO the way they conduct themselves on the field - especially the way they communicate with their team. The best leader in the comp IMO is Riccuito, I admire the way he plays and leads his team. Someone mentioned Hickmott in this thread. Get this guy back to our club in a coaching role now!! That guy prepared his body for a beating every week! He had no problems playing where he was needed. He was never our captain but geez I admired him when he played for us.

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dannyboy

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:26 pm

Ken Hunter

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:12 am
Posts: 10414
Location: Coburg

yes, we need to grow some leaders.

And Hamill is a great word to use around here. :lol:

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

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Bluebernz

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:40 pm

Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:12 pm
Posts: 1291
Location: Sydney

dannyboy wrote:

yes, we need to grow some leaders.

And Hamill is a great word to use around here. :lol:

I agree with Pickle... great thread.... and certainly food for thought regarding our current leadership vacuum.

Just unfortunate that the name Hamill was mentioned. Thread was doomed as soon as that name appeared. :lol:

Even frank got all fired up!

_________________
When Dick became President, it was as if everyone at Carlton came out of the hailstorm and into the sunshine - Stephen Kernahan

YARRAN!!

.

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gerry atric

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:46 pm

Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am
Posts: 2125

Haven't read all the posts, but clearly Carlton saw him as a leader, gave him Kerna's number no less. His salary demands were outrageous. According to Rohan Connolly he was on over 700k last season and despite playing 18 games didn't make the top ten in the saints b&f. He is a great competitor but not a great player. (And as an aside to a post several pages back Fitzy was about 10 classes ahead of him as a player and leader could have got the Norm Smith in 81).

I think he's lucky he went to the saints he can play as their 3rd or 4th tall, which is a real luxury. Whit would do alright as the third or 4th tall forward there with the saints midfield banging it down to him.

I wouldn't have hime back if he came to play for nothing, and in the PSD I want a homesick interstater (Stevo) or maybe a salary cap sacrifice from the saints not a guy who has utter contempt for the club that mad him what he is. And all the talk about 'having' to go to where the big money is....most good players will get more somewhere else, and most good players will make more than enough at their original clubs to set themselves up for life unless they're really dumb, and then an extra 100k here or there wouldn't matter.

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Pat's Fitztrick

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:43 pm

Bert Deacon

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 8:09 pm
Posts: 530
Location: Swimmin' in a fish bowl..

dannyboy wrote:

So have we great leaders?

Do we need them?

And how did we get in this predicament?

In Kouta we have an excellent leader. Perhaps not a great one, but certainly the best available.
Next in line must be Whitnall, Campo, Stevens, Waite and Thornton. If Kouta retired tomorrow our only real alternative would be Stevens, because while I am a strong supporter of Big Red, I do concede that his patchy form is a real worry - as is his stamina.
Campo too, is often harshly judged, but he has been a stalwart of this club and right now is battling with injury. I'm happy to have him as a deputy, but not as captain. My concern is that these days he can be tagged out of the game and his impulse to retaliate lets him down.
The positives for Stevo are his classic skills and coolness under pressure. The negatives are a perception that he is not yet a true Blue, and the as-yet unfulfilled expectation that one day he will totally dominate a game. In fairness to him he is playing in a poor football team, yet I'm sure he would blossom with the added responsibility of captaincy.
And that leaves Waite and Thornton. Put these two in the West Coast side and the football world would be raving. Luckily for us, we have them.
Forged in the furnace of hardship, tempered in the bitterness of defeat and despair, Bret and Jarrod are the future heart and soul of the Old Dark Navy Blues. Either or both of them will lead this greatest of all Clubs when we reclaim our heritage one September in the not too distant future.
Of this I am certain.

_________________
Princes Park - always was, always will be.

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frank dardew

Post subject: hamill

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:50 pm

Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 7640

Touche Elwood

I told myself after seeing this post last night to count to 10 and not respond and then got to 3 and started belting the key board with my first post

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Rod Waddell

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:05 pm

Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:49 am
Posts: 1651

BlueMark wrote:

There is a positive out of Hamills leaving. At least our 500 000 plus players re getting out on the park every week.

Good one BM :lol:

Re the leadership issue maybe in the offseason we should go on the Kakoda trail or meet with Mandela in Sth Africa, etc to grow and develop that leadership spirit. Perhaps more faith needs to be shown and empower the players :wink:

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dannyboy

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:14 pm

Ken Hunter

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:12 am
Posts: 10414
Location: Coburg

So it seems Waite and T-Bird are big hopes for us all. I agree with Waite, think maybe he has all the ingredients including a bit of mongrel - oh for a biyt of mongrel again. A Big Nick or Johnno or Fitzy type of enforcement and protection for such a great club with such a proud history at the moment we have a soft underbelly - I hope Pagan's addressing this.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

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