Barrassi was a leader wasnt he???

He left Melbourne for money..

You can buy leaders... but they have to be leaders...
We dont have leaders so we either wait four more years and grow our own or we make damn sure our hard earnt in the psd goes to a leader...

No good getting Saddington in the psd... or Watts... those blokes have to get here (next to nothing)
Youd take Kositzke.. if you can.,. or someone with a presence.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Leadership is about setting the tone... Hsmill has been instrumental in setting the tone at stKilda... to the point that he used to go by Caulfield Grammer and pick up Goddard and have him ready at training...

Leadership is multi faceted...

Its not just in the middle during a game we lack it...

You can argue he is an overpaid taxi driver... a mentor to kids.. a guy that pushed the gym to the kids and made them understand it... a friend .. and their protector...

Dunno.. cant dismiss that..

500k??

maybe too much for a hack player.. but contributes alot more aropund the place than our hack players ...personally i think going to StKilda shocked him so much that he did everything to help them get up off the bottom that he could... just he can rationalise to himself he didnt make a mistake....

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Frankie you are the man.

Interesting topic Danny but call me blinded by hatred I just can't get past the fact that he has never finished higher than sixth in the best & fairest and spends so little time on the ground. He may be an inspirational leader but the truth is he is an average footballer and he was never worth the money he was asking for.

Hypothetical question - if Hickmott had asked for that sort of money should we have paid it?

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"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies." - Gene Hill

not really interested in Hamil V Hickie stuff. What i am interested in is that this club must identify next generations leaders and then must secure the right ones. Whits is not leadership material, how could a club (much closert to the player than we have ever been) get that so wrong? That is my point.

And are we still getting it wrong? That is my fear.

We should never find ourselves in this rudderless position again yet it is no closer to being fixed than it was four years ago. I like Stevens and know a fair bit about the bloke but I do not see him as a captain, certainly not in the tradition (except our abysmal recent tradition) but who else is there?

This is not having a go at Kouta - he was the only one but he is beyond the point wher ehe can take a game by the scruf of the neck and drag everyone else along - and really that was his quality - it was never as a protector or whatever, so we need leaders.

You all bag hamill but Synbad is right - one of our most glorious caprtains left his club (and at that point what a club!) for money and opportunity. Gee how he must have been hated back then, Yet to me Barass is one of the reasons we became such a great club again.

So go get one cartlon, buy us a great leader - let his ex-club's supporters label him a traitor and etc but gees giuv e us a bloke who out of the field and around the club will lead this team out of the mire.

Pagan needs a strong leader.

The kids need it.

And I am oh so sick of being the competitions little white arsed whipping boy!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

dannyboy, you have had more positions than the karma sutra in this thread.

IMO Waite is the next cab off the rank.

Being a captain nowadays is a lot different than it was in Barrasi's time, for starters media and promotional commitments are much larger.

It sounds nice that we can buy a captain but that is not as easy as it used to be, even when it was easy, it was not easy.

Also, the team can make captains look much better than they actually are. It really is chicken and egg stuff, sometimes the team will drag the captain along and other times the captain will drag the team along.

Joe Blow off the street could have captained the Australian cricket team to success over the last few years.

The leadership issue is important, but it can also be overblown.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

Only mentioned Hickmott because I think he was a very similar player to Hamill.

I agree with you about leadership but I would rather see someone who treats the jumper with a bit more respect. Jarrad Waite to me is the next great Carlton captain.

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"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies." - Gene Hill

Waite might become a leader but at this stage he is miles from being a leader.
He lacks confidence in his own ability.. and from what i understand battles with demons about what he is capable of.
He needs to become more confident in himself before we can tout him as a leader.
Thornton is considered as a leader by the club and its interesting he has been dragged out to CHB to be more in the play.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

That's interesting Synbad - I would not have picked Waite has lacking confidence in his own ability.

...by the way agree with you about Ball. A gun and a leader for the Saints.

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"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies." - Gene Hill

Just as a side point, this was a great song.

Who shot... Liberty Vallnce... DRUM
Who shot.. Liberty Vallance....

Man, my dad used to play this one all the time. Dannyboy, you must be as old as my Dad to remember this.

DB, I think the difference with Barrass to Carlton was that he came priamrily as a coach not a player and in fact was well, well past his best as a player, He came for an opportunity not available at Melbourne. Of course he was also coming to Carlton not leaving them. The way I look at it, everyone should want to play at Carlton and no-one want to leave. In fact it was pretty much that way until the club started falling apart in the late 90s. And re the PSD, I don't like mercenaries. Happy to have a good player but I'd like there to be a reason beyond money - homesick, or hates Grant Thomas etc.

...or John Worsfold

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

I agree with you here Jaroos esp. the fact that Joe Blow could've captained the Australian team in recent years. However the cricket team is in a very different boat to the current Blues team. When S Waugh was captain for example, he had a strong leadership group there helping him already (Warney, Gilchrist, Junior, McGrath, Punter, Lehmann etc). The side he inherited also had many experienced and talented players. It made his job as captain a hell of a lot easier.

The Blues at the moment don't have this kind of leadership group. And this is exacerbated by the fact that our team is extremely young and the team is lacking confidence and self-belief as a whole. I fear our players and club might have developed a losing culture/mindset of sorts after the failures of the past few years which makes it even more important that we find a fresh leader, someone that can inspire the team out of the current darkness and lead it forward.

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When Dick became President, it was as if everyone at Carlton came out of the hailstorm and into the sunshine - Stephen Kernahan

YARRAN!!





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Interesting insight into Jarrad. However, his impact out on the field is increasing and this should hopefully start removing his own self-doubts about being able to make it at this level.... and with that his own self-confidence should develop in time (I hope so anyway). For mine, he just does all the right things out on the field and sets a good example to everyone. There's also the romanticism, for me, of a Father/Son being a Blues captain.

As an aside, the thing that bothers me about TBird is the times I've seen him berate or give a spray to other teammates when things aren't going right (don't get me wrong I love TBird and I'm not bagging him... one of my favorite players). Am I the only one bothered by this?

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When Dick became President, it was as if everyone at Carlton came out of the hailstorm and into the sunshine - Stephen Kernahan

YARRAN!!





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...and to begin a coaching career from what I've read. Would he have come over as a player and purely for a good paycheck? Who knows.

I think Pagan will always look to recruit good players with good character. A natural leader has good character so I have confidence that one of the current younger brigade or a future PSD recruit will emerge as a good/great Captain.

...in particular homesick for Warrnambool - I can dream can't I.

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"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies." - Gene Hill

Great thread DB, great to read the healthy debate with minimal personal put downs.
I don't get to many games, so I miss a fair bit. But I don't see any real standout for captaincy at present. Hopefully some of the aforementioned names will grow into the role.
Most of the best captains of late have been elevated to the role at a young age. They have been able to turn a match and demand respect from their peers. I'm not sure anyone, young or old on our list can do that.
I was hoping we would throw everything at J.Brown to lure him to the club, he will be a great leader.
The more I think about it the more I feel we need to import a young, gun leader. Someone who leads from the front, on and off the park. It'll cost us, but all great teams need a leader.
Regards Pedro.

Not that I would knock back Brown Pedro but this idea of importing leaders...wouldn't it better to nurture home-grown ones?

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"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies." - Gene Hill

Can't argue with any of that and good to see others thing Campo/Whitnall are leaders.

Blue Brad, I wish we were in a position to nurture leaders, but as I wrote before I don't see any obvious leaders at present. That's not to say there aren't any at the club alreay, I simply don't see them.
Although the club had wanted him for a while before they got him, even Sticks was imported. We didn't nuture him. He obviously oozed leadership and was made capitain in his second year.
Regards Pedro.

Ahh Jarusa the idea of debate is to shift ground as other ideas enter the fray - otherwise go away and contemplate rather than communicate.

the longer this goes on the clearer its becoming what is really bothering me and the more I am begining to understand Synbad's attacks.

a) No one used to leave Carlton - well get used to it, those days are dead and buried and we trasde away players as fast as the next club. There is no loyalty, only mateship, leadership, a chance to win a flag and money. Each player must weigh them up.

b) Hamill - who cares? He left. Others leave. Its the hypocracy of if they come to Carlton they are good guys if they leave it can only be for money! Barass left to coach and to get more money! He stated it as so. As for media commitments etc - did you never watch Barass's TV show - he was the original TV leader - helped put carlton on the map of rthousands of little kiddies watching his Mr Football show!

c) Leadership/captaincy - if you honestly think that anyone coul;d have captained the Aussie cricket team and it wouldn;t have mattered then you understand very little about sport. Put warne in charge of that team and it would self-destruct! Put Lehman in charge and it would have been so laid back that the results would have dwindled. It is a belittlement of the leadership we have had top think anyone could do as good a job. That's Grant thomas territory there and it is wrong. Injuries and a poor captain (at this point) are killing St Kilda! No everyone can or should captain. its a fallacy that thomas is beginning to understand. You need to identify the leader(s) and then get them to lead!

d) Waite and T- Bird - nothing either of these two great kids ahve done has shown me they are captain material - now they might be one day but I haven't seen evidence of it yet!

e)We must do away with false pride and rhetoric and silly belief systems (yes Synbad I get it) and begin to push pourselves into this centruty not last century's glory days!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!