The biggest problem I see is that there is no improvement. I grant you that the list is shit but why are they not improving. blokes like wiggens ,sporn and Livo were all top 20 in 2000 and they have not improve one bit under Pagan . You can go through the entire playing list and with the exception of maybe Carazzo every player is playing below what you would expect them to be. Nearly every player that was given a second chance and showed some sort of form last year this year after two years of Pagans coaching they have gone backwards. no one can argue this fact and no one can point to one player in the side who is playing above what you would expect . I think that Pagan is using the draft penalties as an excuse and ther should be no reason what so ever that professional full time footballers with their careers on the line can't show improvement. It is no coincedence that this form slump coencided with Pagan signing on for another 3 years

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The biggest problem we have is not Denis.
Its the lack of leadership when it counts from the senior players.
We were let down badly today at crucial stages .
Sydney.. you think Pagan is using the draft penalties as an excuse do you???

Well lets chop off your fingers and get you play the piano with the stumps of your wrists and lets see how you go....

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I said this laste year.
Each game we win that takes us over 20 points is another Black Friday...

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i think im in love with you synbad

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R A D I C A L B R O T H E R S

Inspired by the One-Minute Sculptures of Erwin Wurm

"All in all is all we are..."

Fevola.
Houlihan.
Waite.
Thornton.
Walker.

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Winning 10 games last year was necessary in terms of laying sponsorships, > membership and for the players and supporters to go into 2005 with a bit of hope.

Those 10 wins might appear a waste now to many, and this may sound silly, but from that "high" (if you can call it that), which the club had at the end of last season and into the Wizzer, it has enabled us to see which players have come falling down with a thud to where we sit now.

Remember, "man is where he is that he may learn that he may grow".

Some may argue that last season was 'short term gain for long term pain', however I look back on it as being (especially for some players) 'short term pain for long term gain' (in terms of the club). And that is what it is really all about.

Now try and digest all of what i just said...

Its not hindsight.... I said some of their choices were poor at the time.

You always need a mix. In 2003 we didn't get that decent mix of young-old.

Pagan went overboard on the recycleds at the expense of youth. And he did it last year as well.

When you pick ready-made players, it has 2 effects.

- takes a spot from a 17 year old
- puts pressure on your middle tier

For every set of positions on the field there should be tiers on your list.

- Regulars
- In contention
- Developments

When you bring in a ready made, they either become regulars (Teague) or fit into the In contention tier (Bannister).

This is one of these "Management" theories here, but I strongly believe that if you have TOO MANY players "in contention" it creates a negative effect on performance. You have too much competition for spots from players and it:

- means that players in that group don't get an opportunity to develop into regulars, because they don't get sufficient game-time

and

- it doesn't give "development players" a chance to grow into contention (Simpson), and shuts them further out of essential game-time.

Because of this logic, trading for Chambers and Longmuir were fundamentally bad decisions, because it creates MORE competition among average players! I was cautious about this at the time.


The difference is that the Tyrant as a "player-focussed" philosophy on list-management, whereas Pagan has a "structure-focussed" one. Structure focuses are fine when you have a brilliant, even team, like Geelong... because you've got to see the big picture incase a component of the machine is down.....

when you've got a poor team and a few raw kids you've GOT to be "player-focussed". He's got to have a plan for every player to get the best out of them. Pagan's doing that now with Walker (getting jobs, learning the craft), and he's coming up trumps. These victories of "faith" aren't an accident.

So, here you go: WHAT I'D DO IN THE DRAFT IN 2005.

We need leaders in the midfield, and in key defensive spots. I'd bring in a couple of leaders these roles from successful teams, cheaply.... they become regulars (Michael Braun???). Braun as example, is a proven regular and leader, and would provide crucial leadership to the many many young players around him for 3-4 seasons. You add some "leadership" and suddenly the "problems" we're having a couple of our other "leaders" dry up.

I'd de-list savagely from our Contenders... then focus on youth. Maybe try and pick up some top young talent from other clubs (like Salopek??)... and pick 6 kids in the draft, and definitely 3 picks in the first 2 rounds. That forces Simmo/Bentick etc to start heavily contending for spots, and puts some heat on them below.

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Fevola has the potential to be a 80+ a year goal kicker he will be lucky to get 60 this year - performing well below his capabilities
Houlihan - was a better player 3 years ago
Waite - very very slow in developing should be taking games apart by now
Thorton - No better that what he was 3 years ago
Walker- when you look at others drafted at the same time as him he is developing the slowest of the lot

Nearly every single player on the list is under performing . WHY?????

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You see, the contradictions within that post are quite obvious.



How do you improve it? You get higher draft picks to pick up talent.



If they are sh*t, then they can't improve. Sh*t = no room for improvement.



Apart from Riewoldt and Koschiztsche the 2000 draft was fairly weak, certainly in comparison to the 1999 and 2001 drafts. Just because you are top 20 doesn't mean that you are as good as top 20 in another year. Because if that were the case Didak = Judd.



There is if they never had the requisite talent in the first place but some recruited thought they did and was stooged.

Sydney, you can't say the list is sh*t and not blame draft picks.

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Try kicking 80+ goals with limited supply. Impossible. That argument is ludicrous.



Granted but also playing HBF or BP, where he never played 3 years ago.



Lost half a season with stress fractures last year. Suffered loss of his father in 2003 in a team that was wrecked by disharmony etc., 2002 was a development year and time for him to build up. Takes 8, 9 marks a game now, I think that's quite acceptable.



He was pretty good 3 years ago, playing on the key forwards of the opposition. Don't think he's gone downhill.



The reason for this is the fact that he's joining a team that is really struggling for elite talent. McLean slotted into a very strong Demons midfield, Sylvia has only just started to hit his straps this year, Cooney had a poor first season until the end of it and is only starting to get into it, he's also playing with a better midfield than ours at the moment. Those 3 were fairly well built before they hit the AFL. Tenace I think has shown nothing. Ray is still building up.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

CC it is not just the shit players that are not improving - Players who are earmarked as potential champions of the club are performing shit. We have about 8-10 players who are about to go from earning $80k -150K a year from playing football to about $40k working for the council. You would think these guys would know that you would think they would be giving everything they had . But no week in week out same lack of endeavour and same bad attitude WHY???????

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They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Tell me why no body in the club is stepping up for that leadership role then synbad. Did you see Fevola rolling his eyes and looking towards the heavens when pagan was talking at 3/4 time. It shows you what he thinks.

And by the way I am missing four fingers and dont do a bad job on a keyboard

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Fev himself said he was looking at the scoreboard.

The problems go a lot deeper than blaming Dennis and would be a factor or many things

* loss of so much experience in the past 3 years such as players like SOS / Braddley / Ratten / Hickmont / Mckay / Ang Cristou ect ... we new this was going to happen but probably did very little to put in place a proper strategy to replace these kinds of players you could prob add Kouta to that list with the fact he was ineffective or absent for 2-3 years as well but we have failed to bring in players who should be stepping up now. So dont think that Pagans Fault that we had no previous plan

* Pagan has been playing patch up the wholes trying to get some mature bodies in and tried the best from an average crop yer some choices havnt been great but lets study w things
#1 we really havnt had much value to trade as our list is not considered to have great value players. Whits was under contract nobody wanted / Campo too old is undisciplined and was under contract / Kouta nobody could afford and he will never be what he was / Fev well the question do we keep or do we let go .. Waite / T-Bird / Walker ... well i want to keep these guys ...... so the question is what have we ben able to trade that we could get some quality in its place that could help us .. best we can do is swap average players for other average players or high draft picks on a punt of a recycled lifting himself and starting a fresh ala chambers / T-Lo ect
#2 Draft Picks lets look at the last 4 years and see what we had pre Pagan and now after Pagan has been here

2001 - First pick 39 second pick 46 Where were our early rounders ?????prob given away for Mckernon or something

2002 - First Pick 45 second Pick 60 well we know the story Draft Penalties

2003 - First Pick 2 second Pick 57 well Pagan did okay considering again draft penalties we kept pick 2 got stevo

2004 - First Pick 9 Second Pick 25 and third pick 41 F/S again he kept the draft picks and didnt trade them away so no criticism there so lets look what the Pagan has to play with in 4 Years of Drafts

in the last 4 drafts trhe Blues have had Pick 2 Pick 9 and pick 25 and even more daming where we have been in ladder positions ... even Brisbane who has had 3 premierships have had better picks than us

Brisbanes Last 4 years and 3 premierships later - Pick 3, 18, 18, 19, 23, 27, 30, 33, 35,
Compare the blues. Picks 2, 9, 25, 39, 41 anybody would think with these pick choices we had 4 premierships and finuished top 4 years runing.
Thats a pretty daming statistic and am sure you could compare every team with the Blues over 4 years of drafts with similar horrow stories

* Excessive Salaries havnt helped and we are now only coming to the end of this with Campo / KOuta / Whitnall who between them have 1/3 of our salary cap. What effect does this have well prob sends a poor message to the rest of the list if they arnt performing or not delivering ... restricts the club from chasing after much needed gun players for the money we have been playing these guys ift would be equivelent to having J Brown / Del santo / Ball / C bruce and a few others and there would still be change. These excessive salaries are the fault of the previous Admin and not Dennis Pagans Fault but does effect who you can chase and prob the other players when the media spotlights it and tells the other players these 3 Both Campo and Whits have been underperforming are being paid x amount. You know in business that if people are getting paid $200K and you only get $50K and the people being paid have been doin very little to get paid that you get Pissed off and say why should i bother when i am being paid Jack compared to those other under achievers .. Prob what frustrates T-Bird and a few others i reckon. If the person gets paid 200K and desrves it nobody will get upset by that..

So with little talent coming in from Draft / having little value to trade / getting penalised by previous Admin / excessive salaries by previous admin - I think Pagan has had to really struggle with very little help.

His only criticism would be not playing the kids enough but he may have valid reasons ie the kids being to under developed .. he has chased kids who maybe would be top graders in the following year draft a year early. Tried to get players from Ireland ect and playing the recycleds to see who stands up so i reckon with some of that knowledge it is very hard to criticise. Even his game plan is simple when we lack talent to do anything else ... kick it in long / move the ball quickly ect and they fail to do that properly ... We cant play the chipping game or something more complex becasue we lack the skills

anyway they are my thoughs maybe someone will do an exercise of how many top 40 Picks the Blues have vs other clubs ... i chose Brisbane as an example and almost fell out of the chair They have had 9 Picks under 30 vs Blues 3 Picks under 30 and this is Brisbane we are comparing with

remember havoing a conversation two years ago with Sticks and he said people wouldn't believe how close we still were to the salary cap given our crap list.

That ends this year.
Now we start to get everything inorder.

you see Sydney

Whits kouta and campo all under contract , all on heaps - Who would take them (unless we picked up huge tabs) ? Name me some clubs.

Plus the players we did off load - we got stuff all for cos no one really wanted them. How is any of that Pagan's fault?

Now waite - Pre Pagan they umm and arhed over taking him - under Pagan he is recognised as (with Aw) our most exciting talent - yeah pagan's stuffed him up



French - everyone (including me) thought he was a dud - no one thinks that anymore - yeah Pagan's ruined him.

Fev/Houla - well until Pagan he and Houla were on the edge - fev was about to be dumped (might have had something to do with the previous coach's refusal to play him).

Livo - go read the articles mike and dan and the Ghost wrote on him. 2 points - he needed to bulk up (takes time) or there would have been little left of him by now and he needed to get over a crippling back injury - now he plays consistent football (and Pagan is still teaching him).

AW - hate to say it but Pagan's doing the right thing byAW - this runner will be full on accountable unlike all our other midfielders (none of whom learnt their craft under Denis).

T-Bird - good player who takes the hardest jobs in a shit team getting belted each week - Pagan's not damaging this one, the bloody midfield are!

Carrots - gee think Pagan's done alright here.

yep its all pagan's fault.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

3 years ago- rd 12 2002, Thornton had played 3 games.
Houla was struggling big time and was in the 2's. Was nothing more than a bit part opportunist forward who had Brittain remained as coach would probably have gone nowhere. A far more complete player now than 3 years ago.

Sydney,

How do you explain the fact that a player like Jarrad Waite is averaging more marks and more goals this year? He's improving is he not? Should have heard Robert Walls gushing about the guy. Sure, there's sentiment because Wallsy played with Vin, but he was pointing out Waite's attributes.

His marking has improved out of sight and is a one-grab mark now, kicks a lot better at goal and his field kicking was excellent on Saturday night with good passes to Fevola and Whitnall. That was the thing he's needed improvement on and he's done it. You want to blame Denis for this?

Walker's development - he's smoothened the edges on his game that tarnished his first year, his disposal, his decision-making, his attempt to be flashy everytime he got the ball and this year has taken a lot of steps forward to be a more complete player. Denis dropped him a couple of times in order to teach him some things and he's come back better than before. You want to blame Denis for this?

These two young players were amongst our best on Saturday night and Fisher is a well-known Pagan favourite because of his ability to mark the ball, his willingness to work hard and his willingness to learn. And when he comes back he'll provide an answer up forward.

Thornton - takes the best forward every week, has done really well considering our midfield is sh*t and gets smashed every week and delivery is usually laces out.

You want to blame Denis for these guys? These are the 3 potential champions we could probably build a side around - as you can see it's not many at all. Want to blame Denis for this? You can't say we have a sh*t list and then say that Denis isn't developing them or getting the best out of them. Last year we had a very similar list, players this year were regulars last year and they won 10 games. Maybe he got the best out of them last year?

But you can't seriously say that Denis is at fault for the improvement of those 3?

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Well Fev can be disappointed in having a groin strain and he was hardly going to play a leading role in a come back once that happened.
dont you think??

We dont have leaders because the senior players arent playing for the jumper. ... Show me how the senior players are playing football for the jumper and ill show you how theyre club leaders,

None of our senior players love the club enough to make the ultimate sacrifices.
No other club has a senior core group that plays with such selfishness and lack of steel.


Why do we have them??

Well its a culture problem.
It was at the club for a while but it really hit the wall when we won the 95 premiership.
When Parkin foresaked his responsibilities as a coach and handed it to the senior group.
It worked then because we had some of the most gifted, talented, cluiest players with a heap of leadership.
Unfortunately they retired with time but the second tier wanted the same freedoms but they didnt have the talent nor the understanding of what i9t takes to be a champion footballer / team.

Same with $$$$$$$...

It all culminated to salary cap rorts and lack of talent / leadrship.
We stupidly gave up alot of our rich draft picks for hack players thinking we can bandaid ourselves to another premiership.
Unfortunately we did it on the backs of few players (Kouta Ratten SoS etc) who were carrying a gaggle of trash players.. and as these players were cut down by injury/ retirements and the players like Allen/ Campo/Beaumont/Hulme/Murphy/Manton were left to fend for themselves we found out we wernt as good as we thought and these players were overpaid and they were not prepred to do what it took....


You reckon you type ok with a finger do you???

Well i bet if you compared yourself to someone who touch types with ten fingers youd be shown up... see its all about perception... youre like Beaumont being the strongest player at our club.. (According to The Game) but is he as strong as the strongest players from other clubs????
Has Pagan got the same talent to work with as other coaches???

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Synbad....Long time no see!

On the Fevola front; he says he was looking at the stats on the scoreboard showing among other things that we had more inside 50's than they had at that stage.

He wasn't sulking.

Problems are easy to identify..

1.Poor recruiting since 95....reliance on senior ageing star players with no succession plans to replace these players....
2.Because of poor recruiting we threw our eggs in a few baskets and ended up with a heap of stupid long term contract players on big bucks....forget campo etc ..we were paying players like Beaumont big dollars in relation to ther worth...
3. Club is a shambles when Collo takes over, Pagan employed with no room in salary cap, senior players on the gravy train getting big bucks and no young talent.
Sponsors wont go near us and we are a third world football club...

How can you blame Pagan for this I'll have a go and name names.....

Parkin/Elliott/Kinnear/Hanly/OSullivan...................Not Pagan...about the only sensible thing Elliott did was get Pagan.
I dont include Brittain...was a fall guy and from all reports a decent bloke but given the poison chalice....

Jacks famous quote that Carlton dont rebuild or if they have to its just in the off season has really come back to haunt us and just shows how far out of touch the bozo's running the club were with the modern game.....no weights program..can you believe that!......U18 recruiting was treated as a novelty...we could always buy our way out of trouble or as it turned out into trouble....
Get a grip some of you...Pagan isnt the saviour just part of the rebuild process but he isnt the cause of the problems either...

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