What is amazing is how restless a few losses, okay a lot of losses makes supporters. It's only a few months ago that many were overjoyed with signing Denis, stating that should be the board's number one priority for season 2005. A few wins would definitely perk a few people up. But not too many, as that would make some more restless.

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But how would you go next year, and the year after? Which players would you draft, which players would you delist, which players would you talk to from other clubs? How many uncontracted players would think "I'd love the opportunity to play under Sydney Blue"?

People wanted Pagan to perform a miracle, and when he hasn't delivered one due to a terribly unbalanced list bereft of any outstanding talent, these people want to get rid of him.

Name any other coach who would have gotten more out of the current list. Name any other coach who could've rebuilt the list while having no early picks and no players of worth with which to make decent trades.

Denis himself says Nobody wants to hear about the labour pains, they just want to see the baby, and I think this club is still in it's first trimester.

As I have said, I was a Pagan fan and thought he was the man for the job.
I'm man enough to admit "I was wrong". He has had three years and we are back where we started from, no good enough in my eyes.

Without Pagan we would not have been anywhere near record membership.

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"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies." - Gene Hill

what is everyone getting so serious about?....get on with it!

we are 16th and won't get much better this year
we have Denis for another 3 years

It could be 1964 and we were struggling as a club and only had half the flags we have today

or we could have Ian Stewart or Ian Thorougood as our coach

Have patience people, have a look in the mirror, pull your head away from the keyboard, and stick it out the window for a big deep breath of fresh air..

we will be back - players and coaches will move on.....I won't.

How is Denis going to go next year and the year after - can you see into the future can you . I just stated I could have coached this team to finish last and so could you.

What has Denis got out of this list - I keep hearing this but I dont see it
what 10 wins last year - when The Crows - Tiges- Hawks were all going through turmoil and Collingwood struck down by injuries. False Dawn dont you think

oh the Wizard cup I forgot the comp we won when everyone else was playing their youngsters

By the way woman dont have labour pains anymore they have a needle stuck in their back and it kills the pain . They end up giving birth without feeling a thing. Old Hat coach with old hat sayings

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My ex gave birth twice without an epidural. The problem with people today is they want the easy way out. You can't rebuild the crappiest team in the league without going through some bad times.

Why on earth would you do that . It would like going to the dentist nad saying dont worry about the anaesthetic just drill the tooth.
Mines about to have her third and shes already booked out all the drugs she can take

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You have to give him another couple of years to make a judgement...sometimes you have to go backwards a bit before you can start going forwards and I think thats whats happening at the moment.
Give him two more years and some decent recruiting and then judge him..

From memory everyone was onboard the Pagan bandwagon after the wizard cup and wanted to give him anything to re-sign...

We didnt need the floodmeister in Eade and Terry Wallace wanted the same dollars as Pagan and doesnt have a CV that includes winning flags...whats left Gary Ayres, Spud Frawley,......the only other candidates were assistants like ODonnell, Harvey etc.....

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Getting way off topic, but childbirth is a normal, natural thing which women are physiologically designed to endure. Dentists drilling teeth is not.
Lil' Miss Wojee was born in 4 hours from go to woah. No time for anything other than happy gas which my ex reckoned didn't actually do much

Well said Elwood.

Gotta love a thread that segues from coaching to the pros & cons of natural childbirth.

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Nope. Thinking of Grange. And it depends what styles you like. You see they use American oak, and most of us in the tasting group do not like American oak due to its coarse tannins and sweet middle palate. Much prefer the softer tannins and more fine grained structure of cool climate Shiraz in French oak. Funnily enough, the times we have had it in blind Shiraz tastings, the one guy who does not put it down the bottom is a guy who consistently rates American oak wines higher than the rest of us.

But it comes down to what you like, and in my opinion you can get better quality Aus shiraz for under $40.

Sorry, I can't say much about childbirth .... don't remember mine!

Don't forget the bouquet.

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Perhaps because we've had all our top line players back bar French for the last few weeks and it hasn't made a lick of difference Perhaps, like many posters, he thought it would all be ok once our KPP players were back on the pack and had a few weeks to gell. Well it's bloody obvious that that hasn't happend and it's not ok. Would you rather he perservered with something that clearly isn't working? or try something different even if this is seen to be "reactive"?

Who could he have picked against the Lions that would have given us more pace AND deserved a game besides Simpson? and many people didn't think he deserved a game based on his last performance.

Who would you have played on Stafford? .... let me guess, Norman **yawn** We didn't lose that game cause of Teague on Stafford we lost cause we were weak as piss all over the ground, especially in the midfield.

Terry Wallace also categorically stated several times last year that he would only consider going to a club that had the best possible options available to aid him achieving success. This included (a) paying 100% of the salary cap; and (b) EARLY DRAFT PICKS

Anybody who thinks Pagan was not hampered by the draft picks care to elaborate why Wallace thinks it's so important for success, yet we are expecting Pagan to have advanced our list without them???

If we had made progress "with the players Denis has recruited/traded" then we wouldn't be having this discussion. If we had finished around 11th or 10th or even 12th, then you can say he has got the best out of this mob. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Denis has been hampered by the draft penalties, but for gods sake we are back where we have started from 16th. Sorry I expected better.

I've had my tooth drilled a couple of times without anaesthetic... my choice... I like to test myself out against the pain. Isn't there a risk involved with getting an epidural?.... which is why some don't opt for it??

And on the subject of Shiraz, don't know how anyone can like that stuff, too pepperry for mine... much rather Cab Merlots......



..............what was this thread about again??... oh yeah, Denis.... I've said this before but IMO wait till he has a decent list before judging him... even Norm Smith would coach this current side to the bottom of the ladder this year!

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YARRAN!!





.

Did I hear Fatprick correctly say this morning that Melbourne had lost its picks also and it hasn't hurt them? What kind of peanut is that fat asshole? Melbourne lost their picks in what, 2000? (someone correct me if I'm wrong) 2 picks for a team that came runner up, so that would be 18 and 34ish?? and for 1 year?? and 2 years prior to our penalties?

We had a total of 6 or 7 top 20 picks over 2 years taken away (again, tell me if I'm wrong) that would include 1 experienced un contracted player from the PSD 2002. And shitsmear is on our case for whinging? We're not whinging

Have monitored and prob the thread has gone off the track but i think again people need to look at the wider picture and really know where we are at

Argument of Pagan being paid 600K vs untried Coach 200K

Suggest we at least have a few more facts

Fact Pagan has inherited a list which is way below what he or anyone expected if i am going to access Pagan i will be doing it from 2006 where he has more control on the list and can really have his stamp on.. Then i will be judging his performances based on this critera. Since his been here he has had 2 years of No proper draft choices exceot pick 2 and Priority and i am happy with Walks and also how we landed Stevo. last years draft he did the right thing again which was to hold onto picks 9 and 25 and prob tried to trade to get picks but alas we have very little currency to tradeso i will base my asseesment on the onfield performnce from 2006 onwards.

As for what value he is currently providing offield

Pagan 600K
2003 / 2004 / 2005 Record membership and increased sponsership which i think is largely built around Pagan as being coach
In the Rebuild he now that he has chance this year based on where we will end up can really start to rebuild the list

Untried 200K ie P Rhode / Brittain ect
With our past 3 years form i reckon would have had a drop in say 20% membership so possibly could have been in the 25000 area thats around 7 to 8K potential drop in membership again only speculation but this is more shown to be the reaction in simialr senarios of untroed coaches
Also possible ability to not increase sponership as coach unknown and team performing poorly
Also would prob be sacked at this point in time which would hamper the rebuild of the list with all the changes that are occuring

So i would stick with Pagan think he pays with the increase in membership and sponsership we have gotten recently not all to do with Pagan but he may helped and assess him on his onfield performance post 2006 which should allow him to have more control on the list

Wolfe I think your drawing a pretty long bow to suggest that the increased membership is a direct result of Pagan. I think the membership increase is more of a result of the anti Elliott sediment and Collins effort to encourage membership where as before it wasn't.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws