Let's forget about the Blues for a minute.

Take a club.... any club. Now let's say that club wins the wooden spoon.

They must have had a fairly crap list to finish bottom right?... or they had a half-decent list but copped injuries to several key players and/or had a shit coach....which resulted in finishing last in the ladder right?

Now take the very same list and REMOVE many of the experienced, established players in that side due to retirement. Gee, that WOODEN SPOON LIST just got a whole lot worse didn't it? Would hate to be a new coach that inherits that sort of playing group!!

But hang on a minute there's more! If you thought that was it... there's always more!

You also get a free set of steak knives in the form of getting excluded from the draft for 2 years. Yep you heard right!... not just one year of exemptions! As a once-in-a-lifetime offer!!!...We give you not just one BUT 2 years of no meaningful participation in the draft! Yep C'mon down Mr. Coach... not only are we giving you a Wooden Spoon List but we'll give you 2 years of draft penalties so you have no meaningful way of improving that crap list for 2 years!!

What started out as a WOODEN SPOON LIST just got a whole lot worse!! Right?
Or can some people still not see this?

How anyone can be overly-critical of Pagan is really beyond me!!!!! How many other coaches, other than Pagan, have gone through the above scenario in their first year at a club? I'll give you the answer. NONE!!

Let's get real some of you folks! I've said it many times before:

WAIT TILL DENIS HAS A HALF DECENT LIST BEFORE JUDGING HIM!!!

Why are you expecting Denis to perform miracles with this list??????... the same list that I just described in the above scenario?

A team with a huge vacuum of talent and leadership and that consists predominantly of C-Z graders?? (and 4thchicken, just to answer your response to my previous comment, I don't believe Collo was taking a swipe at our young players when he made that "C-Z grade" comment, he was referring to those that have been with us for a few years now, and as it currently stands now we have few that fall into the A or B grade category).

There is plenty of rebuilding that needs to be done. It will take a few years. And we need to be PATIENT. Patience means one shouldn't get ahead of oneself with unrealistic expectations.

I for one am glad that we have an experienced, successful, and proven coach that is in charge of trying to rebuild the type of list that no other coach in the game's history has ever inherited!

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When Dick became President, it was as if everyone at Carlton came out of the hailstorm and into the sunshine - Stephen Kernahan

YARRAN!!





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Sorry Guys you can crap on all you like about loss of draft picks and poor list but the Big DP has to accept some responsibility when we get thumped by 8 goals by the Doggies.
There is no discipline in this side - no commitment in this side - no desire to win .

i am sensing all is not right and we could be facing another 2003 end to the year.

Please Denis give me some faith and in a fortnights time lets see the kids on the team sheet. i dont care if we get thumped just give me some hope for the future

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I don't think Denis tells players to give their direct opponent 15m space. I don't think Denis tells players to bomb the ball blindly forward without looking up. I don't think Denis tells players to pick out opposition players and hit them on the chest.

Denis must take part of the blame for our players appearing to be flat, but the players must take full responsibilty for showing shit skills.

the players must take full responsibility for not taking any responsibility out on the field!

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... an eagle flew out of the night. he was something to observe, came in close i heard a voice, bending stretching every nerve, had to listen had no choice ...

Wojee go back and have a look at the tape when we played them in the WC. They looked how we looked tonight. Eade has worked this side and they play to a plan and their skills have improved out of sight. This is all part of coaching - if you are not getting your message through you are doing something wrong. Look at the bench rotations - look at the team discipline - look at the fact that their three best players were not even playing. Pagan himself said football is 10 % skill and 90% above the shoulders . He is not getting the message through

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Denis will accept responsibilty for the losses and should be introducing the kids(only 2 kids available) but the players he inherited bar Fev aren't standing up.How many top twenty draft picks played tonight compared to the dogs? Walker,Camporeale(finished) and Sporn versus Cooney, Ray, McMahon,Griffen,Faulkner,Murphy,Johnson.

The Dogs also had senior experience in Giansiracusa,Power,Walsh, Darcy,Grant,Minson not playing tonight.Huge difference in quality of the lists the Eade and Pagan inherited and with the right coaching the dogs would come good. Put Denis in Eade's shoes and he'd be regarded as the one of the coaches of the year.

Denis doesn't have a football brain to get through to!

We also had two of our best players for the season out tonight in french and waite - still maintain that fisher and livo should also be included in best 22 as well - moreover de luca is part of long term future
Agree dennis will accept responsibility for the defeat and it wont take long after the end of round 22 for the culling to start

or

there are players playing who are not wanting to take on the message and shouldn't be playing and after this year will not be playing.

Russell will come in soon.

Hartlett is injured.

Fisher is coming back.

Raso was never going to play this year

Bentick - maybe but he is not fast and would have been killed tonight - I;d rather Houla or Bowyer did the chasing tonight.

Norman - another good game and he might get another crack at it

Wiggins - don't think he'll make it anyway but maybe he shoiuld have played tonight.

And he is playing the other kids!

The only other might be if DeLuca is long term but that will depend on whether he is and if we can aford to with our salary payments.

Thats the kids.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Lappin and Camporeale are going backwards whilst Johnson, Smith, Eagleton,Darcy and Grant (both injured) all still have a hunger for the game.I didn't see the game but I doubt Houlihan wasn't his usual laconic self and chasing like his life depended on it.We should follow the Hawks lead and put a Damian Hardwick type onto the coaching panel.That's if there is enough money in the kitty after what may be another huge financial loss.

How is Lappin going backwards?

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

He's only been serviceable in 2005 and must be carrying an injury as he hasn't performed as well as his AA year.

Confucius say player surrounded by shit inevitably picks up some of the stink.

More of Sydney Blues dont worry bout the list as the Blues steller A - Grade list should easily out do the poor been in the bottom end of the ladder Bulldogs for 4 years.

Get Real Sydney the lists are chalk and cheese the Bulldogs list is not to bad should have been on par with the Saints except for the coaching they have had in the past 2 years has stuffed there developement. Eade is a good coach and has a half decent team at his disposal if the dogs couldnt win tonite there would be something very wrong. The Bulldogs list is better than quite a few teams and they should advance a fair bit this year

So i expected the Blues to loose and they did. I was watching more to see who showed something can see one thing for sure when French comes back Prender will be gone and Bryan will take his place .. Bryan has showed more in 3 games than Preder in the past 2 years.

Also was very happy with Carazzo showed some good form will be good in the next coming years

I'm sorry to say this but I'm now doubting the suitability of Denis as our coach. He's not getting the best out of our blokes and is not the best game day coach (never has been). The bit that's of real concern to me is the lack of team spirit - something that's always been a Pagan strength. I accept that our list is shit, but we do have some good players and should be showing more... and leadship starts at the top. Yep, Denis has lost me.

PS - For most of this year, I've been focussing on individual players and not the team's result (so I can get some sort of enjoyment out of the game). Try it, it does make going to the game less frustrating.

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Galaxies in the grain...

Works for me .... as if i worry about the scoreboard... !!!!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Thats how i am veiwing the games now so that the result dosnt bother me anymore ... i just look to find out who would be good to retain into 2006.

We should do a poll how many of you guys on this site tipped the blues to win.. i certainly didnt my tipping for the last 2 seasons has been crap because i believed the Blues could win now i tip with the head.... seriously the Dogs should easily have won over us and they did ... our list is well i have said crap but more it is just not competative... I do believe with some changes next year it can change very easily from being un competetive to competative and show imidiate improvement.

If we end up last this year what do we have to look forward to for our list
2-3 top 20 licks hopefully 1 / 2 / 18
A PSD inclusion
Santanta
Russell
Hartlett
Blackwell
Fisher
Raso

This alone gives me some hope for 2006 and then i expect a big improvement and to see the blues progress maybe not finals but i would expect 10 wins+ in 2006 baring massive injuries

ALso i would expect a few of our second chancers / foreign legion to be gone as well with only the choice picks remaining and with the new introductions in 2006 having a better mix and balance

Adjust your sights to 2007 /2008...

And then only if we get priority picks and very good uncontracted players.

Whats required now is patience and doing the job properly.

Id start trading duds for picks and playing kids to ensure we pick up enough elite talent to really go forwards in the mid to long term..

It wont happen next year.. if we win another 10 games next year it will end up like Groundhog day.,,miles away from having a good list..

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I haven't read this whole thread, but if the basic message is to get rid of your coach I agree.

I watched the game last night and even I was frustrated. You have players out there that are quite capable of playing the game, and playing the game well, so the question needs to be asked why they're not.

Their attitude is [REDACTED]. Their body language is disgusting. Aside from maybe Fev and Lance, not one single other player even looks like he's playing a "team" game. There's no encouragement for the younger kids when they do something good. There's not even any congratulations when a young guys kicks his first goal in the AFL!

If a team is not playing like a team, if they look so disinterested and play such an apathetic brand of footy, then that responsibility has to lie squarely with the coach.

Sure, Pagan can't go out there and play the game himself, but it's his job to make the players want to. And he's failing miserably in his role as senior coach of the Carlton football club.

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SIDE BY SIDE
COOOOOLLLLLIIIINGWOOOOOOOD

Geez Mandy that sounds like Malthouse in the first 7 rounds of this year until he realised his head was on the block for having his contract renewed. So now is pushing the pies to get some wins up and hopefully get his coaching renewel then maybe he can do what he wanted to do this year next year and go for some rebuilding lol

So net result for Collingwood they get 7-10 wins no finals and miss out of picks they also need. But at least Malthouse may get to stay on as coach again