Agree marci. Given our wretched drafting history we have to be better than everyone at drafting otherwise we're going to be watching results like that for years. Didn't see the game but from the radio and stats, looks like Carazzo and Thornton did reasonably. Sounds like Bowyer at least put in. I know he lacks a bit, but he is still young and he has lots of guts and leadership. Sounds like our confidence is totally shot. Little doubt we'll get DP#1 and probably PP, but getting flogged every week and having little spirit around the place is really hard to come back from, and we can't keep sacking half the list. I don't mind losing, but I do mind playing like a rabble. At least DP made some reasonably positive comments. He has a huge job to rebuild spirit etc. Simmo sounds like he did okay. Bannister only had 2 possies, don't know if he was on long. Radio commentators were critical of our use of the bench compared to Bullies. Wouldn't worry about suggesting Bullies won't be any good in September. Been bad for a few seasons, and are improving rapidly with several VIP out. Light years ahead of where we are at. If DP gets us out of this in the next 3 years I'll happily concede he's a genius.

If you guys think youre going to draft players to build around with the picks we didnt take Davey or a guy called Hudson who hasnt proved anything yet you have rocks in your heads.

The real gold is in the first few picks.
We havent had any... even last year where we could have not worried about improving overnight and rebuilt PROPERLY.. we tried to get up the ladder as soon as we can and lost yet ANOTHER couple of players that we NEED to go with Wells Goddard and Kepler Bradley.

Doggies on the other hand have been quietly adding to their young kids as did Hawthorn and Richmond... and guess what????Theyre improving!!!!
They have better lists... not frightened to TRADE Nathan Brown when he was leaving them for $$$$.... or Richmond Ottens... or Hawthorn Thompson and Rawlings for picks ... but we have people that dont want to lose Lance for a pick...!!!

We need picks and we need them now... it will take us 2 or 3 years but we need to build a side from scratch.... TODAY!!!

The core group of players we have have illustrated that theyre not the right ones to lead us anywhere.. lets find our next core group of players today....

Its laughable you people think Davey is a miss for us..!!!!.. youre not going to build a side around Davey so stop tripping and stare what we need in the face!!!!

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No Synbad you're not going to build a side around Davey, but you also need more than just first round draft picks, by the time we get 22 of those it'll be about 2017 the one's we get next year will have retired. We have to be great at drafting, better than everyone else. Sure get gun players early but good players late - like Fisher. Point is Davey is much better than Kenna and Hudson much better than Mott. You can't get it right every time, but we have to get it right nearly every time or we are going to be down for ages.

And surely you can't blame supporters for being cynical given our drafting history.

NO ...... I was watching my beloved Blues.

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"IF YOU FAIL TO PREPARE, YOU'RE PREPARED TO FAIL" - Mark Spitz

Yeah but you get Davey so what????????

What you need is a player and players you can build sides around...

Just say we were the geniuses that each year picked the best crumber with a late pick...so what??????

Davey is playing for a top 2 side.. reckon he would show brilliance for us????

Why not???
Cos we dont have the guts of a good side...

Davey is just icing on the cake not the cake...!!!

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People can be as cynical as they like but its not going to happen for us unless we get early picks... !!!!...and plenty of them!!!!!

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I decided to watch the Wizzer cup match against the Bulldogs this morning and the standouts in the first quarter were:

Lappin
Chambers
Fevola..

All three contributed to goal scoring... Surely Lappin needs to spend more time in the forward line. We can't rely of Fevola and Whitnall week in/week out to score goals.

Chambers just hasn't found his wizzer cup form... i just don't know why. He was a good runner in the wizard cup.

I would like to see someone clean up a west coast player in a fortnight with a good legal shirtfront. At least get physical and see if we can get within 50 points of them... cause a bit of damage enroute to inevitable defeat.

I would also like to see further development from Bryan's - can he be another forward option when not in ruck?

We're still looking for the seeds to plant the wheat that makes the flour that goes into baking the cake...... (and to top it off we're in the middle of a drought)

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"IF YOU FAIL TO PREPARE, YOU'RE PREPARED TO FAIL" - Mark Spitz

What people DONT get is were in the drivers seat to improve.. its ju7st not going to happen overnight like we hope.. and wish!!!!

The same system that brought us down is the system that can fast track you back up... you just have to have the balls to stare it in the face and not blink!!!!.. then take advantage...

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Take in a different attitude into the game look for the positives not the result ie

I reckon what you are seeing is players playing for a position for 2006

Compare Prender vs Bryan
In 3 games Bryan showed more than prender if they are both going for the same position ie Mobile back up ruck then i would say that Bryan will stay and Prender will be cut. This will show how we are working on picking the best second chancers to to take in with us to 2006

I would say Bentick / Johno / Davies are all going for a in under midfielder at end of year 1 or 2 will stay and 1 or 2 will be gone

There will be many other examples but the players who are being included now are all playing fro spots in 2006 and only a handful will remai and by round 18 i reckon we will have good idea of who will remain.

As for our kids in the Bullants let them play in there maybe the Bullants can play off in a VFL GF and win like Geelong VFL did several years ago will give them enormous confidence. And hopefully they will take that wining culture into 2006. Also another bonus of these kids playing together in the Bullants gives them a group playing together mentality. These kids will have all gelled together in a wining combination and will take that into the seniors rather than playing bits on and off the bench in a loosing team lacking confidence and morale. I keep saying there is a plan in place of some thought. Think big picture not each reult individually i wil put a thread to hopefully show that the 2006 season wil be a lot more positive.

Also great positives ...i found out of the Game..

Carrots - showing he will be a good midfielder gets the ball can use it and has improved in his delivery

Bryan - Outclased Prender think will be the better option in future for a mobile Back up ruckman

Simpson - got some game time improving as well.

What a shambles. Disappointing.

Body language was poor and some players just had no impact on the game.

positives:

+ 1AW. Played a really solid game. Seems a bit more comfortable in going for the ball - demanding the ball - than earlier on in his career. Still a long way to go with this kid but the signs are there.

+ Carrazzo. What a pickup! Really has shone down back for us this year. Pace, skills, courage are all there. Has definately cemented his place in the team. Ayres (besides being boring as hell) said that Carrazzo was a very, very good under 18 player. Good to see him take that next step.

+ Matty Lappin played a good one. Seems to have run into better form of late.

+ Bryan. In only his third game! Really is showing something - and apart from one shocking kick, his foot skills really have surprised me. Hopefully he can develop, a la Barnaby French, into a really good, mobile ruckman.

+ Simpson! I just can't get my head around why he seems to be dropped. And also don't understand why some people on this site reckon he's a dud. I think it is undisputed that he has raw talent - but it is his application that really gets me excited about this kid's future. Doesn't shirk a contest. Goes hard. Good to see! Quickly developing into one of my up and coming favourite players. That pace! Still a long way for him to go yet, though. He needs consistency. For God's sake Denis, keep this kid in the team.

negatives:

- Kouta definately carrying an injury. Hobbled quite a bit and at times couldn't even put in a genuine effort in the contest. Why play him if he's unfit?

- Steven's also must be struggling with injury. One of the hallmarks of his game is that he runs and runs and runs. Not so recently. His output is greatly diminished. He'll bounce back though.

- Sporn. What to say? Pagan must really like this kid for him to always be in the side. It's almost like he has had too many negative run-with roles - his offense is non-existant. Why not put him in a forward pocket and tell him to be creative and take a couple of marks for the game?

- Houlihan started well but dropped off. As invariably happens these days. When was the last time he strung four quarters of quality football together? Not doubting his skills, or his ability - he is one of my favourite players. We all know that he is soft, and I think that this is one aspect that won't really develop in Houla. He's no Michael Voss. But imagine him in that side. Or playing for St Kilda. Or hell, anyone else. If he could play his natural game of receiving the handball and delivering the pill with his pin-point passes without having to really fight for the possession.. Well, what I am saying is that in a good side he would be outstanding, imo.

Fevola must lick his lips every time Houla gets it on the wing.

And the final negative..

- Denis Pagan. What the hell was that comment in the press!? "...but I really appealed to them at three-quarter-time and they were able to find something. There were some positives to come out of it."

Memo to Denis - no there weren't. Just more fluff. He's been doing it a bit lately.

It shows that we can't start a game. It's been our achilles heel for the whole season, and for the last 3-4 years for that matter. The opposition gets the jump and we play perpetual catch-up football.

He appealed to them at 1/2 time (presumably), the Blues came out and dominated the quarter but couldn't kick a goal. That's not positive. Another achilles heel - dominating around the ground but not able to convert. Really kills us. We need the confidence that kicking goals - consecutive goals - brings.

He appealed to them at 3/4 time. We kicked more goals than them. When it was all over! The game couldn't be won. It was junk time. That wasn't positive.

It's going to be a long time at the bottom, guys and gals.

In my opinion Carrazzo tried hard all night playing falf back and even pushing up the ground when needed. Simpson got plenty off possies mainly because Western Bulldogs arnt physically strong, so he was able to find plenty of the ball. If Fevola was given supply from the midfeilders and support from his other forwards he could of kicked 10. Bryan showed abit of stability.

Although many say we over achieved last yearand the Wizzard Cup. The Wizzard cup game against Western Bulldogs we absolutly dominated. WB had a full strength side and we where still too good. He have lacked heart and confidence

What excuses other excuses can be used? We overavhieved but we where outplayed last night and didnt even want to be competive. IMO the players are to blame because they dont tackle and not play contested footy. When we have the ball our players look for cheap stats but when where not in possession none of our players have the desire to win back the footy!

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"Dont count the games, make the games count"

Synbad, how do you know who is going to win you games and who isn't? How do you know who to build a side around and not?

Admit it Mott and Kenna .....very very bad picks.......Hudson and Davey much better picks.

Pagan is not an untouchable - he has made some poor decisions and continues to do so. The job at hand is extremely difficult and if Pagan is not having any self-doubts, questioning his moves etc or looking for advice/insparation from some other source than l'm afraid he is not the man for us.

nb is it a coincidence or have things really gone off the rails this season when Pagan re-signed.

I thought Fevola was fantastic. Playing with a groin injury but managed 5 goals in a team that got flogged. He led & chased all night. He tried to rev up the team when could, he encouraged all the players around him all night & never dropped his head. I thought he led the team really well & only hope that Kouta & Campo were watching...

Carrazzo was great - he never stopped running all night & is a player of the future for sure.

Bryan & Lappin were also good.

The rest, well, we are terrible.

am watching the roos v dockers game

a positive is that we don't have dean laidley as coach!

yeah, kangas might win (46-35 late in 3rd qtr), but in the context of our list problems i wouldn't want wins on the basis of 8 or 9 man defences ... it's a fools paradise!

this is also why, 4th chicken, retaining brittain would have been further disaster for us!

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... an eagle flew out of the night. he was something to observe, came in close i heard a voice, bending stretching every nerve, had to listen had no choice ...

The Roos have used that tactic all season, from the game against us where Fev and Lance had 2-3 opponents at every contest to today's game where Freo's forward line seems to be teeming with blue and white guernseys.

We seriously lack mongrel, physicality & strength.

Glen Bowyer tackled a WB guy on the wing in the 3rd qtr & instead of dumping him 6 inches into the dirt he just hung on & the WB bloke had time to decide who he was going to give off to with a handball because his arms were still free, this is not the correct way to lay a tackle.

Someone else noted the the Bullies weren't the strongest side we have played against but how many times did our tackles not impede their progress or they just slipped out of our grasp, how many times did we see a Carlton player stay off a potential one on one contest & try to corrall their opponent instead of attacking the ball with aggression & trying to win possession, this is not good enough.

We desperatley need a player with some mongrel in him who can create a physical presence by laying tackles that hurt & busting packs to make the opposition a little nervous, as it stands at the moment sides can just brush past us & run the ball without any real fear of a tough contest, this is not good enough.

Who do we point the finger at for this chronic lack of intensity?

The coaching staff for not teaching these guys to hit the ball & their opponents hard?

The players for seemingly not having the intestinal fortitude to do the hard things?

The AFL for denying us draft picks?

How the bloody hell do we address this problem?

BTW we missed Jared Waite last night.

Rod.. well im sure if you look at every other club including Demons they havent won each time on the draft table...

Now youre being simplistic.
Mott and Kenna didnt work .. therefore Pagan cant coach...

and of course Davey wouldnt turn this club around...

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Fair dinkum Synbad, there was no suggestion that Davey would've been the difference to us making finals or not. Or even Hudson for that matter. And I agree with you wholeheartedly in that we need to bottom out and exploit the draft system for all it is worth (PP) otherwise we are staring at being mediocre for 5+ years.

Having said that, the draft doesn't end at pick 5 and we need to be smarter with our draft picks from no.1 to no.100. Every selection the club makes is vital. Future All Australian CHB were picked in the 20's in their respective drafts (Rivers, McGuire) for example.

I just don't agree with the excuse that 15 other clubs overlooked Davey so you can't blame Carlton. That is crap. We were the club the chose between him and Kenna, who were widely regarded as offering the same and pretty much fitted the same description. It was a mistake by Carlton. Simple. As was Mott before Hudson. I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but Davey was more obvious, even at the time.

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C'mon Blueboys!