I don't think Pagan knows what to say anymore....unless he cuts to the chase and says as Synbad said "We're a bucket of shit" at the next after-match press conference.

I just think everyone at the Club wishes this nightmare of a season would end right now......

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Football is life: there is nothing else

I remember what you said Synbad and you were definite we'd make the eight and not to worry. Same talent different ladder position, the coach's message isn't getting through as well as last year. The players aren't doing the one per centers and aren't playing with inspiration and as a team working for one and other. I'm not under any delusions that we're better than what we are but any coaches job is to instill mental toughness, inspiration and hence leadership. That's Pagan's job and he is failing in 2005, when he recruited from other clubs discards all he is choices were of 'good character', men who would respond to the opportunity to play AFL. You can't deny that.

79 i dont want to argue tis cos you wont find anyone or anywhere on here where i said we would make it after the collingwood game.
I think youre thinking prior to that...
(Thats only cos i got sucked in)
Pagan gives them a message... the message gets reinforced by the team leaders... problem is we dont have any of those...we have guys with no passion... you cant instill passion into guys that dont really care about their footy but that football is their job only.
You can pamper them to play a little better .. but then theyre not tough enough mentAlly to take you where you need to go.
Of corse if they all felt fantastic about themselves we might have won like 4 and maybe won 8 for the year.....

My question to you is if that happened cos we gave them more slack..... SO WHAT??????!!!!... thats not what we want.. we need REAL TALENT AND REAL COMPETITORS!!! players who enter the game like Gladiators at the colloseum... thats what Brisbane have.. they dont have players who are shit and think its all too hard!!!!....

You need natural competitors not pampered pussies.

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Dont hang anyone for making predictions of a final eight finish this year. We were all a bit "Duchessed" by the Wizard Cup result, every Wizard Cup Winner in the past 4 seasons or so had made the top 4.

Dont forget in the last quarter of the Wizard Cup Final, West Coast headed us in the last quarter and we finished over the top of them.

The confidence and camaraderie of that result have all but disappeared - if we had of kept that form line we may have made the eight - but we would only have been wallpapering the cracks.

This is the season we had to have (and probably should have had last year) - reality is our list is not good enough and the fragility of it has been exposed under the blowtorch of the Premiership Season.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

We had enough talent to win 10 games last year Synbad...whether we deserved to win 10 or not we did and in 10 years time we'll still have won 10 games in 2004...

Our list is poor Synbad, you've made your point and nobody disagrees with you.....what people disagree with is the degree of poorness...you think it's worse than I do but I still don't think it's very good.

Synbad if you've been watching the games talent hasn't been the main problem for the most part. It's been a lack of intensity and lack of desperation, lack of all those things that no matter how untalented you are you can still display if you really want to...yes at the end of the day we still wouldn't be any better as a list in terms of ability but doesn't it worry you that we don't look as though we're a footy club and it runs deeper than talent (i.e. leadership problems etc)?

Everyone knows we need more talent at the club...but the same list won 10 games last season. The same players Synbad that played on Saturday night with the exception of one or two beat the same (actually a better) Bulldogs side 4 months ago by a bigger margin than we lost by last night...the same Carlton side beat WEST COAST in the Wiz Cup Final and don't bullshit on about how it was only the Wizard Cup we beat them fair dinkum we did in a proper game of footy that both sides wanted to win...likewise the Bulldogs game.

And here we are 2.5/13 and I'm sorry mate I don't think I'm in denial, I'm realistic and know that we aren't a good side at the moment. But look at who we're not getting as much out of as last season, look at the lack if intensity and genuine fight and exuberance, there is something really wrong and it goes further than talent Synbad.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Talent is something you have or dont have 2005.
so is menntal toughness.
Mental toughness is a talent.

Voss is mentally tough and Houlihan isnt.... its all part of the talent you have and the talent you dont have....

Whats so hard to understand about talent and richness at a club is not only how they kick the ball but alos how they kick the ball when its tough???

Is that hard for you to understand????

What you dont get is YES... a new coach would get us to win 7 games this year.. (cos like you said our list is shit) but thats because they would feel better about themselves because the coach is their mate and he doesnt push them as hard... but those players there will never get you to a flag.

Players should want to be pushed!!!!.. our players shy away from being pushed.

They like to play inside their comfort zone...

You dont want them like that!!!!

You want them to meet challeneges head on...

Like Brisbane players do...

On the end of a 3 goal break by the other club??Vos goes in crash smash!!!!... Brown breaks open a pack and its game set and match.

Its about imposing yourself on a game!!!

you want to impose yourself on a game and the opposition... !!!
thats how you win!!!

Thats what Carey did!!!Archer???Same... even Brent Harvey .. the same..!!!

Our guys want to be comfortable... try and take their comfort zone from them???

Well they will sulk!!!!

Well guess what???

Those players wont win you anything with that mentality so @#$%&! them!!!!!
Id rather theyre exposed for the cheats and softcocks they are now then have them influencing kids!!!!

They can all go and get [REDACTED]!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its not about having a team of snags that do ok sometimes and are also rans... you need players that are hard enough in the mind to take a game by the throat!!!!

You reckon Campo Whitnall and Lance do that today???
Of course they dont.. they go through the motions week in week out for 4 years....

But you cant see that... you want to win games... sometimes.. thats good enough for you isnt it???
Just as long as our team isnt a rabble in the short term...

Id rather see us at our worst...then you know where were at.
StKilda always used to gang up on their coaches... thats why they have won ONE premiership!!!

Richmond?????? the same...!!!!

Have Lances feelings been hurt???Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Campos???? Sadddddd.....

Lets make them feel better... cos theyre the difference between us winning a premiership and not winning a premiership.
I want our kids being influenced by a fatty and a soft cock...

Like i said.. you learn more about your players with the blow torch on than the caviar and champagne with strawberries.

We beat the Bulldogs 4 months ago so that means were better does it???

Do you think Johnson can teach our players a thing or two about playing for the jumper???
Doesnt Rohan Smith raise the bar for their kids in the running stakes dept???

\who raises the bar at Carlton???

Campo???

Is it his running that impresses you???
His tackling???

whatabout when Kouta stopped???
Lance and his diet???

Reckon thats a good standard for the team???
Raises the bar doesnt it???

Thats Pagans fault eh??

I think you guys have AFL mixed up with a social game at the park.

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I think Synbad is slowly but surely turning into tommi.

oooh, the dots are gettng bigger.

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I don't know what a lot of that had to do with what I wrote before.....

Synbad answer me this. If Lance, Campo etc are such bad influences then why doesn't Denis drop them? Why are they playing. Hey let's face it we're probably going to win no more games with them in the side then out of it. Why doesn't Denis drop one of them to the seconds?

For what it's worth I agree we lack toughness....we have none of it really compared to other sides...

Yeah Synbad I want to win every week, damn right I do...I go to the footy every week Synbad and I'm disappointed when we lose...I can't help that and I won't apologise for it. I want us to won every game we play. But I know it won't happen. Doesn't mean I shouldn't want it to happen..

Doesn't the Bulldogs turnaround concern you Synbad? Doesn't it make you wonder? We beat them by 9 goals two full strength sides on the park...16 weeks later the complete opposite with an even worse Bulldogs side out there..see Synbad to me that goes beyond talent, something like that happens for a reason and it's not talent. They're better than we are Synbad...but a 100 point turnaround in the space of 4 months worries me...

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

I like winning too 2005 but im not that daft as to think were good enough.
Bulldogs turning around???

Compare lists....thats all you need to do.

Theyve been quietly oing about the business of rebuilding their list with early picks...it didnt happen overnight.

Why will Livepool get rid of Kewell???

Why not get rid of the coach who cant get the best out of him and replace him with OGrady???

Why did Liverpool get rid of Robbie Fowler and replace him with somneoen new???

so not to improve???

The difference ius the only way we can get a gun into our side 2005 is via the draft.
We cant buy him...

Im sorry Carlton cant win 7 games for you to make you feel good..!!!!...thats just how life is... we cant always get what we want...

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Actually that's the problem Synbad....we can win 7 games in fact this list won 10 games so we CAN win games but we're not...the reason we are not winning games at the moment is partly talent but moreso lack of intensity, lack of fight, lack of heart and just a general indifference that has permeated through the side and that's the thing Synbad.....if it looked as though we genuinely gave a shit Synbad and still lost well you have no choice but to accept it do you...but I don't think we're getting the most out of ourselves and it's always worse for that to happen than to simply all be shit in the first place Synbad.

You still haven't answered the Bulldogs question Synbad. 100+ point turnaround in 16 weeks. In the Wiz Cup their side was better than it is now in terms of personnel and ours was about the same. They're better than us Synbad...but that's some turnaround don't you think...especially when you consider that they had a better side then than they do now?

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

I did answer your Wizard Cup question.
Bulldogs new coach and have a real list....

Carlton not a great list... the WORST list in the AFL...second to none...

Now you answer the question i threw at you...

How do you COMPARE our list with the Bulldogs list???

Just go through player by player...

The WHOLE list.
Rate midfields..
Key positions
Leaders
Hard players...
Ball users
Runners...

that should give you an answer instead of having your head in a hole in the sand...!!!!!!

easy isnt it???

Who are our runners?
Who are our tough players??

We had one thing over them last night..

We had a champion forward and they didnt!!!!

They killed us and it wasnt reflected on the scoreboard!!!

They had Rohan Smith we had Campo...

Check the work rate out....
Campo doesnt need a coach to tell him to run....his legs arent painted on.

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So why don't we just drop them and play some kids?

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"Go blues"

Feel my love...............

If we had dropped Beaumont two years ago we wouldnt have found him a new home.

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They also had a real list and a new coach when we thumped them in the pre-season Synbad..

I didn't compare our list with the Bulldogs' one Synbad...I said twice that they're better than us anyone can see that

I'm worried about our list Synbad really I am...but we can't do anything about it now...what we can do is play with some bloody intensity and desire and passion and dedidcation for the club and we are not.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

maybe Pagan doesn't want to win like he did the whizzfizz...

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Ok so we established we beaty them in the Wizard Cup.... when their coach didnt know them as well.
We also have established they have a better list than us..

the rest is just sticking your head in the sand...

We need a better list... we need better leaders to lead the better list in the intensity stakes.

You cant buy players ... so you............ have to.................???????. ..say it!!!!..D R A F T them in....

And because no matter how Jarusa will tell you there is no difference between a pick ONE and a pick EIGHT... there would be NOT ONE club that would trade their pick ONE for a pick EIGHT....!!!


Noone would trade picks 1 and 2 for picks 7 and 8 either... thats just Jarusa crazy talk!!!!

For someone who prides himself on numbers and stats he lets himself down with ridiculous comments like those...

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Yeah Jarusa go back to that padded corner and stay there til you get your numbers right!!!!

or I'll send a note home to your mamma


ahh whose your mamma Jar Jar?????

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

But Synbad you don't need to have talent to display INTENSITY....talent is not a pre-requisite for PLAYING FOOTY WITH PASSION, DETERMINATION, INTENSITY! If you have a go and you lose out based on talent you can accept it Synbad....if you don't have a go and lose it's not as easy to take and it shouldn't be easy to take!!

Talent = no prerequisite for intensity!

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

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Intensdity levels are craeted by your main players 2005.

For example...!!!... A team gets a roll on against Brisbane... Voss comes on and crunches someone in the middle and it sparks the team on.

Question to you... which Carlton leader has the TALENT to raise the bar for his team????


Once you can answer me that .. the intensity thing is checked.
How many times must i say leadership is a telent reserved for special players.. we dont have any!!!
we just have players getting paid to be leaders but dont possess the talent to lead...


Imagine were Spain... Denis is the Queen... ... and he sends his ships the Santa Maria , Pinta and Nina out there... and there is no Cristopher Columbus no First mate.. just an average crew..... well the ships would just fall off the edge of the world... whic is exaclty whats happening to us.

Does that make sense to you?????

Or is that just hard to understand too???

cos if it is.. youre either taking the mickey.. or just dont get what happens with succesful sides as compared to crap sides..

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