1.) Beaumont isn't even playing for Hawthorn at the moment. His disposal is poor. He was a good servant to Carlton but his time was up Syndey Blue. Do you know about Round 22 2003?

2.) Allan is continually injured. Has he played this year? I'd rather Barney and Chris Bryan. Allan if fit would be in the Bullants, he'd be no use to us.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

I am a big fan of Bret but i have been watching him closely lately and he has a tendency to go off at his teammates for something that was his fault. In the Brisbane came when he was playing on Browny the ball went out of bounds 50 metres from the lions goal and Thornton insisted on pushing and shoving a much smaller lions opponent totally forgetting about Brown who was sitting 30 metres out on his own. While roughing up the oppisition might be good there is no point if all he is doing is likely to give a way a free kick and leave his opponent on there own - not very responsible. What i did like about this was that the player who was yelling at him and putting him back into line and reminding him of his opponent was young Carrazzo. Carrots has impressed me heaps this year and he was great on Saturday does any one think he may be a potential leader not necessarily captain but a leadership position - he puts his body on the line and tries his best every week

fact is Beaumont was a hack but shit we had some A grade talent around him and that allowed him to play okay - when that talent retired Beaumont was hopeless.

See its no good pointing out those kinds of players and saying 'gee we should have kept them' they would not help us - and didn't help us at all their last year!

mario Bortolotto played in a flag winning side but mario - nice guy that he was, was not a great player, he was lucky, in a great side he filled a certain niche.

the blokes you mentioned apart from Allan (injury killed him) were just bit parts that did okay because we had blokes like SOS Ratten Braddles McKay running around - all of them A graders. Who are our A graders in the 24 bracket that we lost?

None.

Why?

Cos Parkin, Brittain didnt recruit young talent except for Whits (via father/ son) and Hamill. Then they made Whits a basket and put all their eggs in it and he ended becoming a basket case!

Its the A grade 24-28 year olds that we lack anbd that is why the draft penalties knocked us for six (as they were meant to do) because our A graders are kids and that is also why denis was forced into the Irish experiment and things like Angwin and Norman - we needed genuine A grade talent - until then everything else is just pissing in the wind.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Sydneyblue wrote

Pagan kicked a whole heap of experienced players out the door and now he looks like a fool. His side is now the laughing stock of the competition. He has a certain type of player he likes like Wiggins or Sporn because they are committed and have courage, shame they can't play footy. Hopper and Beasy were talented players but didn't fit the mould, same thing with Norman.

I dont doubt for one minute that these guys had seen there day . What I question is the way their departures were handled and how it was ever allowed to get to that stage . all things said and done they must of had some sort of ability to play so many games at Carlton. We could have phased these players out over a period of years while we developed a new breed of young recruits . Not chuck out 31 players over 2 years and replace them with guys that were struggling to hold down places in other sides

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Agree with all of that Danny but it doesn't hide the fact we got rid of too much experience. We are embarassing at the moment and who can be bothered going to watch us. I had to go by myself to the Lions game because my mates have given up for the year.

What experience that we got rid of what you actually have kept though? Which players that we let go would have us any better off than we are now? You can't be serious in saying that you would have kept Allan? Or Beaumont??

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Beaumont was better and probably still is better than Livo. Murphy is better than McGrath. McKay and Hickmott may have played on if their mates were not treated like sh!t.

no what is hurting is that by the time Pagan hit the club we had no middle age
a graders (Fev was a goner as was houla) except for Whits.

None. Zero. Zilch.

that is the problem not some fear that getting rid of Murphy etc hurt us - oh and by the way those kids you wpould have recruited - what with picks 50 odd and beyond? Great real A graders there.

Denis did the reasonable thing. he brought in a bunch of second teir players to give us a year's breathing space (last year) so we got membership and sponsorship and not 3 years as the bottom team.

Now we are back to the bottom (and rightly so) and we go for A grade talent because without it we are going no where and you may want to watch this side go flagless for twenty years but the danger of that is we also go belly up!

We need talent and we need patience because this is a long long plan.

Do you remember when the penalties were handed down - do you remember how long all the experts said we'd be stuffed for? 10 years! 10 friggin years!

they may not be so far off.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Beaumont is finished! Gone! This is it for Beauy! We don't need him, he was a good servant and a handy player surrounded by good players. He did well sometimes on players big than him and who will forget that he kicked 8 goals in a half once. But time is up for Beauy and his time was up at Carlton.

I'd go with Livo ahead of him any day of the week HHH. Hawthorn could play Beaumont but what would be the point?? He'll be gone at the end of the year and they're better off playing the kids!

McKay and Hickmott were finished too. You know theGame, you can play too long too. I think both retired at the right time. Hickmott's body was stuffed and McKay had nothing else to prove or achieve.

Hey HHH why don't we just bring back Braddles? And Diesel and Sticks and then Robert Walls after all we got rid of too much experience remember!

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

McKay won the best and fairest in his last year and was in great form.

Livo isn't Beaumonts jock strap. As soon as we get rid of this dud the better.
Hey Blues2005 do you think Martyn was a better option than Manton in 2003? If the answer is yes I'll stop arguing because Pagan really has got you whipped.

Well I'd rather go with a 22 year old dud than what is now a 30 or so year old one who won't have a club next season TheGame....

Do you know about the events if round 22 2003? Look Beaumont was a good player for Carlton for part of his career but as someone else said he was surrounded by better players which made him look better.

Why isn't he getting a game at Hawthorn, theGame? Why won't he have a club next season?

And no I don't think Martyn was a better option than Manton. I would have played Livo ahead of both of them but I think he got injured about half way through....but what's your point? Manton perhaps was treated badly......but he wasn't young either....Martyn was just older.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Could not agree more Prez, although I have deep respect for our No 43 I would make Thornton captain starting next year

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A macfart a day helps you work rest and play

No. Please fill us in...

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NOW YOU'RE JUST SOME CLUB THAT I USED TO KNOW.

Beaumont to North players "How the &^%$ did you survive under this bloke for 10 years"

Sydney, you've never answered this question even though I've put it to you several times.

If you have employees who are actively undermining your authority what are you going to do? Are you going to be weak and keep them? Or are you going to be a leader and say they are useless to the organisation, they are fired.

If they had talent, then Pagan has more balls than you give him credit for if he got rid of them.

If Beaumont was that good why isn't he playing for the Hawks at the moment (who you might have noticed are 15th on the ladder)?

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

So what, I wonder the exact same thing. Didn't Teague when he was at North he was happy Pagan left because Laidley was giving him opportunities.

Having been poached by several companies over the years the idea is not to get yourself in a position where your employees are trying to undermine you in the first place . If they are trying to undermine you it shows they have no confidence in your ability and you must have done something to cause that lack of confidence . The last thing you want to do when brought in to a situation where issues need addressing is to get the old employees offside . You need to work with them take their ideas on board let them think they are having an input and through natural attrition ( not wholesale sackings and retrenchments ) let them move on . The process usually takes about 3-4 years and what you find is the people that want to be there and are prepared to do the hard work do so and stay and those that are looking for the easy way out tend to leave .
As for talent everbody has some sort of talent the idea is to get the person to use that talent.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Denis it's fairly obvious now that the job at hand is proving to be extremely difficult. You did a sterling job last year to win 10 games and early this year to win the Wizard cup - you gave us hope.

However you need a hand. You need assistance. You need to bolster you football department (Elsaugh and Libba are not the answer). Perhaps if you take a paycut - say drop your wage from $630k to $500k we may be able to snag a fulltime and a part time assistant - preferably successful just out of the game ex-players (Marcus Ashcroft comes to mind).

We need to focus on the key deficiencies - for me the younger players stagnant development and set plays/match day manouverings.