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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:46 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:13 pm
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SurreyBlue wrote:
gerry atric wrote:
Quote:
Lets keep turning over 15 players a year so we can get Pagans game plan working by 2010. When is he actually going to get someone to play his game plan?
Eade was praised for his gameplan on the weekend because its used the strengths of the Bulldogs side when is Dennis going to bite the bullet and start working to some of ours?


Well said Scottopee, surely after 3 years DP has players playing to his gameplan. Isn't it his responsibility to get players to do what he says. DP has proved himself good with a good stable group, he is very methodical but don't think he's in the same league as Eade in terms of quick thinking and strategy. Whatever happened at North, this is a whole different situation and he really has to prove himself without a gun team or the best player (in Carey) for the last 30 years. We've been treading water so far and talk of player disillusionment doesn't surprise. I doubt the Carlton players are any dumber than anywhere else. It's up to the coach to develop a plan that gets the most from the group and to get the players to carry out the plan. We're a spiritless, directionless rabble. Everything won't be miraculously solved by a couple of 18 yr olds in the draft.


I third everything above. :cry:


I,m sure you do! :roll:

But then again you struggle to navigate your way from Princes Park to the Docklands! :evil:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:06 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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difference some of you are ignoring is that the Bullies actually had some good youth (early picks -remember them?) but a shit coach - then Eade came in & suddenly the kids have a coach again.

We have a good coach but a shit list and I know its boring but until the coach gets a good list - and not stop gaps until we could enter the draft but PICKS from the draft and then three years for those picks to mature, then he will be pushing shit up hill.

Think in terms of wine.

It just takes time.

Last year we picked up Russell and Hartlett, Blackwell and Raso; they will develop. This year three or four more (plus both years our rookies eg Smith/Becker this year and the two irish lads) and slowly we'll turn this list around but it will not happen over night.

I cannot believe the people bitching the loudest (well apart from me & Agro :lol: ) about the penaltiues now choose to ignore their effect - that's why we all hated those penalties because they would hurt!!! Well its hurting, its not Denis, its not Collo, nor the more to TD :roll: its the penalities (which we all said were draconian - well Duh!) and our drafting from say 98 through to that black, black evening!

So give Denis a chance to draft before saying he can't do it :roll: he has had 1 pick in Walker and then last years draft - I am rapt with Andrew and this year's draft will be fine. Just relax and watch the grapes ripen.

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Last edited by dannyboy on Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:08 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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7dominator wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
gerry atric wrote:
Quote:
Lets keep turning over 15 players a year so we can get Pagans game plan working by 2010. When is he actually going to get someone to play his game plan?
Eade was praised for his gameplan on the weekend because its used the strengths of the Bulldogs side when is Dennis going to bite the bullet and start working to some of ours?


Well said Scottopee, surely after 3 years DP has players playing to his gameplan. Isn't it his responsibility to get players to do what he says. DP has proved himself good with a good stable group, he is very methodical but don't think he's in the same league as Eade in terms of quick thinking and strategy. Whatever happened at North, this is a whole different situation and he really has to prove himself without a gun team or the best player (in Carey) for the last 30 years. We've been treading water so far and talk of player disillusionment doesn't surprise. I doubt the Carlton players are any dumber than anywhere else. It's up to the coach to develop a plan that gets the most from the group and to get the players to carry out the plan. We're a spiritless, directionless rabble. Everything won't be miraculously solved by a couple of 18 yr olds in the draft.


I third everything above. :cry:


I,m sure you do! :roll:

But then again you struggle to navigate your way from Princes Park to the Docklands! :evil:


As I said .... Obsessed ... but you know what, I have been enjoying the "medallion club" this year and if I was only looking after my "best interests" then I wouldn't be having these OO conversation with you.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:35 pm 
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Rod McGregor

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:56 am
Posts: 175
scottopee wrote:
Why do we kick long to forwards who are at their best when leading for the ball not taking pack marks?
Why do we kick long into our forward line when the opposition flood or play loose men in defence?
Why do we play the corridor when every side against us runs it back around the wings where there is heaps of space?

Maybe we could go back to good old fashioned first option football.

Agree with previous comments that the emphasis is on quick delivery via long kicks rather than a direction to kick to space in the F50 without selecting a target.

"Best Option" football is a fine concept as long as you have a team of skilled players with good judgment and vision.

Ideally, if you could program players like computers, you would ensure that the selection between options:
* favours longer/direct over shorter/indirect, where the relevant teammates can take uncontested possession or where the risks of a turnover is similar;
* allows for a loading in favour of longer and more direct options so that even if it is somewhat more risky than a short option it will be preferred;
* prefers handball to a free teammate rather than handballing to a player under pressure in or behind the contest;
* prefers kicks to handballs unless the kick may be smothered or go astray with pressure, or unless a handball to a free player is a better option than a long, direct kick;
* allows running and bouncing where that player can goal, or draw an opponent to create a free man, but not if long-kicking can achieve the same more quickly.

This is all obvious stuff, isn't it? But the problem comes with how players implement these obvious preferences.

Some players will not have the skills to do so. Those who have no confidence in their kicking may decide to pick out a player with a short, chip kick to allow the teammate to compensate for a wayward kick (even if that means holding the play up by going backwards or sideways). Or the footskill-challenged player may decide not to kick at all by handballing to a player in no better (or maybe in worse) position than himself.

Or an inexperienced player or one with poor decision-making skills or vision may prefer shorter options because the teammate is louder or closer and therefore more obvious (moreso if the senior players are selfish and demand the ball contrary to the team's interests).

Or players might give into the temptation when under pressure to become involved with a counterproductive chain of handpassing within a radius of 10 metres to players under similar pressure because it is easier and they can hear their teammates call for the ball. Murphy did some good stuff for us, and was at his best when he used his long-kicking abilities to good effect. But who wasn't irritated by his tendency to have multiple possessions when he, Bradley and others handballed up and down a line of 3 or 4 players before one of them kicked aimlessly into the flood that developed?

Soon enough, indirect and pointless possession becomes the order of the day. This is reinforced by losing streaks. The will to take risks by direct and fluid play dries up.

If you are a coach, you can tell the players off for doing this. And at training, maybe they respond. But when the pressure is reapplied on match-days, these bad habits, patterns of comfort, re-emerge irresistably.

Pagan's gameplan assumes that he does not have a team of 22 players with the decision-making, disposal and visionary skills of Diesel or Hird. He understands that he has a handful of A grade players, a number of B grade players and the rest are C grade players because of limited ability or inexperience. He acknowledges that some players, who might be skilled, are selfish, or perhaps don't have the insight to see what is good for the team and the will to play accordingly. So he enforces a style of play which strongly features physical play in contests and direct and long disposals. But it is not a system which mandates a long kick on every occasion.

Pagan may well ban players generally from running with the ball where targets are on. But he will let certain players who have the necessary ability and discipline do so. Players like David King and Harvey at the Roos were allowed and even encouraged to do what he frowns on from others. Houlihan appears to have this permission - and he has not been benched or axed even where he has run across the backline and turned the ball over by passes which didn't hit their mark.

Players generally are not allowed to do U-turns rather than feed it out by hand to those running towards goals. But again, Houlihan is allowed to do this in defence and Betts in the forward line, and Lappin wherever he is.

Players like Stevens are allowed to go short, or run out of the goalsquare at kickoffs, because he can trust them to use good judgment. But players like Prenda are encouraged to avoid short kicks because they can't be trusted.

The truth is that some players just don't have the discipline, intelligence, disposal skills, vision, decision-making skills, team-orientation or composure to be trusted to make their own free choices. That must upset a lot of players. Because even the worst of the 650 odd AFL footballers was a star in the lower grades of football. It must be disappointing for a player to see that his role is not as big as his ego and past junior performances suggest it should be. Those players become the robots of the AFL - constrained by team-rules and the coach's orders to play a fairly basic role. And while these "grunts" do the spade work, the glory goes to the elite players who are the real stars.

Pagan has players at his disposal (or has axed players) who:
* turn up stoned to training;
* allow themselves to become unfit;
* miss training;
* commit stupid mistakes away from the club;
* play selfishly rather than for their club and teammates;
* refuse to play the role set or in the manner required.

Until Pagan has a team capable of self-discipline, he is entitled to impose discipline on the team.


Last edited by Mav on Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:02 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
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Nice post Mav - I think you have about summed up Pagans Gameplan to a tee. With the exception of the following
It requires an accountable forward structure to bring the ball to the ground and hold it in if a mark cannot be taken
It requires a lot of running - pushing back to defence and then pushing forward
It requires a very discipline defence as the ball can get rebounded very quickly.
It lends itself to contested football - so marking ability and out positioning your players is paramount

Now our problem is
We dont have the forward structure to hold the ball or bring it to the ground we basically have three leading forwards.
We haven't the talent to rotate off the bench so our mid feilders soon become spent and therefore un accountable (soft cocks as some like to call them)

We dont have the big solid accountable defence and our major ball winners are often spending to much time down back to cover

We do not have the big bodies to play contested football (we have the youngest list)


So my question is - why play it why not introduce a different style of play until he has the personell to carry out his gameplan

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:16 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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becasue then he would need to retrain those he wishes to keep (like fev or walker) onc ehe has the personale. Better to play this style and then introduce players via the Bullants (gee is that why he hasn't played Russell yet) and let them get the hang of it there and bring them in when ready and as this side grows his gameplan will produce better results.

In the way I look at it your way is for the coach to be reactive to his playing list rather than procative to develop the list he wants.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:12 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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SurreyBlue wrote:
7dominator wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
gerry atric wrote:
Quote:
Lets keep turning over 15 players a year so we can get Pagans game plan working by 2010. When is he actually going to get someone to play his game plan?
Eade was praised for his gameplan on the weekend because its used the strengths of the Bulldogs side when is Dennis going to bite the bullet and start working to some of ours?


Well said Scottopee, surely after 3 years DP has players playing to his gameplan. Isn't it his responsibility to get players to do what he says. DP has proved himself good with a good stable group, he is very methodical but don't think he's in the same league as Eade in terms of quick thinking and strategy. Whatever happened at North, this is a whole different situation and he really has to prove himself without a gun team or the best player (in Carey) for the last 30 years. We've been treading water so far and talk of player disillusionment doesn't surprise. I doubt the Carlton players are any dumber than anywhere else. It's up to the coach to develop a plan that gets the most from the group and to get the players to carry out the plan. We're a spiritless, directionless rabble. Everything won't be miraculously solved by a couple of 18 yr olds in the draft.


I third everything above. :cry:


I,m sure you do! :roll:

But then again you struggle to navigate your way from Princes Park to the Docklands! :evil:


As I said .... Obsessed ... but you know what, I have been enjoying the "medallion club" this year and if I was only looking after my "best interests" then I wouldn't be having these OO conversation with you.


Waiter???

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:21 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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dannyboy wrote:
becasue then he would need to retrain those he wishes to keep (like fev or walker) onc ehe has the personale.


Exactly.
There's no point allowing them to play to their strengths while he assembles the list into what he wants if he's then got to spend another 12 months reprogramming them.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:24 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Adding to what danny said, you need a game plan which is successful in September. No use getting there and seeing your team's skills fail as they crumble under the pressure of a one-on-one contest


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 Post subject: Gameplan
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:01 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Gameplan ? Close your eyes and kick the shit out of it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:22 am 
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Trevor Keogh
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A quick question to all DP bashers. What exactly are our teams strengths that DP is supposed to be playing to?

We have a couple of experienced players who can play, a couple more who could but their heart isn't in it... a few rejects... and kids who don't know their arse from their elbow...

If you master coaches can find a strength in there, you should win flags regularly...

In the 80s the Aints lost every game...Why? Coz they had shit players? See a pattern? You could have Jock McHale, David Parkin, Allan Jeans, Kennedy... coaching this list, you would get what we have now... Rather than just telling us Pagan is shit, let us know what you'd do...

If you have any ideas...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:13 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Big T you've nailed it with that post.
As one of my old coaches said "you can't make sugar out of shit".
If it was all about coaching, we wouldn't need a draft for players just one for the coaches.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:58 am 
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Bruce Doull
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StKilda have never had this few very good players.. nor Fitzroy or the Lions.

We have the worst list in modern football history.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:42 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Don't be overly dramatic or anything Synbad... :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:43 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Blues2005 wrote:
Don't be overly dramatic or anything Synbad... :roll:


I raised my eyebrows for a minute when I read that Blues2005 but consider the players who were on Fitzroy's list in their final year when they were rock bottom.

Martin Pike
Chris Johnson
Matthew Primus
Brad Boyd
John Barker
Jarrod Molloy
Stephen Paxman

I'd still take our list over theirs but I wouldn't mind having the first three at Carlton.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:53 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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GWS wrote:
Blues2005 wrote:
Don't be overly dramatic or anything Synbad... :roll:


I raised my eyebrows for a minute when I read that Blues2005 but consider the players who were on Fitzroy's list in their final year when they were rock bottom.

Martin Pike
Chris Johnson
Matthew Primus
Brad Boyd
John Barker
Jarrod Molloy
Stephen Paxman

I'd still take our list over theirs but I wouldn't mind having the first three at Carlton.


Good point GWS.

Hindsight is 20/20 vision, those players have had 10 years to build a career and reputation to alter our thinking about the Fitzroy list. Even though those players have developed and had great careers, at the time they were all young and inexperienced which contributed to Fitzroy's woes. Lists should be judged on what they were like in the year you are judging them, not based on the subsequent career acheivements of certain players.

We will have players in ten years who have had fine careers. Maybe history will judge our list differently again.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:47 pm 
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Robert Walls

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GWS wrote:
I raised my eyebrows for a minute when I read that Blues2005 but consider the players who were on Fitzroy's list in their final year when they were rock bottom.

Martin Pike
Chris Johnson
Matthew Primus
Brad Boyd
John Barker
Jarrod Molloy
Stephen Paxman

I'd still take our list over theirs but I wouldn't mind having the first three at Carlton.


Just shows that players can be a lot better when surrounded by good players. I'm sure our list won't look half as bad if we can get a few quality players to support them.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:56 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Synbad's was a ridiculous comment.

Whatever spin you want to put on it this SAME list won 10 games last season, Fitzroy or St. Kilda of the 80s couldn't do that.

We have Stevens, Fevola, Houlihan, Thornton, Camporeale, Lappin, Whitnall, promising youngsters in Waite, Carrazzo, Walker, we haven't even seen Russell, Hartlett etc yet.

I don't care what anyone says the above mentioned players all have talent and ability.

Some of our players will go on to be 10 year players just like former Fitzroy players like Primus, Pike, Johnson etc have been.

As I've said in numerous threads the overriding problem at Carlton at the moment in my opinion is NOT the LIST or any perceived lack of TALENT on it. The problems run deeper than the bloody list and if you can't see that well I'm sorry but you're blind! Obviously it's not a great list of players, everyone knows that. However it goes BEYOND who's on the list and who isn't.

To suggest we're as bad a list as St. Kilda of the 80s and Fitzroy circa 1996 is laughable.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:03 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Jarusa wrote:
GWS wrote:
Blues2005 wrote:
Don't be overly dramatic or anything Synbad... :roll:


I raised my eyebrows for a minute when I read that Blues2005 but consider the players who were on Fitzroy's list in their final year when they were rock bottom.

Martin Pike
Chris Johnson
Matthew Primus
Brad Boyd
John Barker
Jarrod Molloy
Stephen Paxman

I'd still take our list over theirs but I wouldn't mind having the first three at Carlton.


Good point GWS.

Hindsight is 20/20 vision, those players have had 10 years to build a career and reputation to alter our thinking about the Fitzroy list. Even though those players have developed and had great careers, at the time they were all young and inexperienced which contributed to Fitzroy's woes. Lists should be judged on what they were like in the year you are judging them, not based on the subsequent career acheivements of certain players.

We will have players in ten years who have had fine careers. Maybe history will judge our list differently again.


20/20 indeed.

Anyone with Fox should try and catch a Fitzroy game when Johnson was in his third year ('95). He did some good things and some unbelievably stupid things.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:13 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Blues2005 wrote:
Synbad's was a ridiculous comment.

Whatever spin you want to put on it this SAME list won 10 games last season, Fitzroy or St. Kilda of the 80s couldn't do that.

We have Stevens, Fevola, Houlihan, Thornton, Camporeale, Lappin, Whitnall, promising youngsters in Waite, Carrazzo, Walker, we haven't even seen Russell, Hartlett etc yet.

I don't care what anyone says the above mentioned players all have talent and ability.

Some of our players will go on to be 10 year players just like former Fitzroy players like Primus, Pike, Johnson etc have been.

As I've said in numerous threads the overriding problem at Carlton at the moment in my opinion is NOT the LIST or any perceived lack of TALENT on it. The problems run deeper than the bloody list and if you can't see that well I'm sorry but you're blind! Obviously it's not a great list of players, everyone knows that. However it goes BEYOND who's on the list and who isn't.

To suggest we're as bad a list as St. Kilda of the 80s and Fitzroy circa 1996 is laughable.


Oh really???


then how come we have won 19 games in 4 YEARS ?????

(That averages out to a priority pick each year over four years .. they give priority picks to SHIT CLUBS not TALENTED CLUBS.... :roll:

I think whats laughable is when some supporters have their heads up their own arses about where were at.

Well... guess what???

we will have another crap year like this one next year too...

you wanna know why????Cos we have heaps and heaps of talent and we won the Wizzard cup.. so that means we have a very talented list...!!!!
Talented lists win 19 games every 4 years......

Youre right we have alot of talent... were just going through a rough patch at the moment...

2005.. Lets sit around the fire,hold hands and sing 'Kumbaya'

PS.. Stevens is a very good player not a superstar...Fevola i(s a class act when we have the right players around him.. (miles away from that) Houlihan.. good player nothing more.. Thornton.. (certainly no superstar).. Camporeale.. (long in the tooth and shows nothing any average footballer running around the park doesnt show)Lappin (30 next year and age catches up with everyone)...
Waite..(Coming along nicely needs to improve his kicking and is no KPP yet)..Carrazzo (Youre kidding if you think he is a top 200 AFL player).Walker(promise/potential) Russell and Hartlett(Havent played a game so how are they even better at this stage than Axe Atkins???)

Yes we have Lance 'My body is my temple' Whitnall too..

You just proved we have a fantastic list.....heaps of absolute stars in that list you gave me...

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