Just read the thread,

Think I was referring to this senario in my self respect thread a couple of weeks ago.

Interestingly the players that are pissed off are not the ones that cop abuse by some on this board. They are onside.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Give Pagan to Nth and we'll hire Matthew Allan as our coach and Beaumont will become our head skills coach and gee I reckon make Campo captain with kouta and double what we pay lance - the shock might just ressurect his career - and trade AW and Russell and Hartlett - reckon we could get Harvey from St Kilda and Everet from Hathworn for them and get back to an old list, these kids just take too damn long, and then return to Optus Oval9no one will be coming toi see us anyway) and everything will be dandy...maybe JE should return, gee things were better in the old days!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Do unto others as you would have them do to you.



We'll win a few games again and all of a sudden Pagan will be a hero. I'm still happy with Pagan as coach, but I may get restless if 2006 takes on a similar path to 2005. And, FWIW, I think the Pagan to St Kilda scenario is a bit short sighted and hasty.

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What a Precious little commodity has Denis Pagan become void of all criticism . Its not his fault we are last

Poor little Denis hasn't got the players he needs and the ones he has wont do as he says.
Looks like Denis will have to find some new players that will play the way he wants to.

Give me a break

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

a madman that probably had the greatest CHF the game has seen - yet only one two premeirships.

a madman that had the nucleus of his great side from the tender age of 16 to 17 years old and was coaching them from the under 19's and upwards.

pagan is a good coach - dont doubt that, but lets not call him the messiah.

His coaching this year has been poor and it amazes me that alot here seem to forgive him for anything he does.

If pagan as coach has told players they arent up to it infront of the playing group - well, that is the worst thing to do for a coach. No problems with it being said behind closed doors in a one on one, but roasting a player like that infront of everyone else does no-one any favours.

Our list is no where near as shit as everyone thinks it is. Winning the WC while everyone was prepared to right it off shows the football that can be played by this team.

And it was with some amuzement that the great messiah that is to be the no 1 draft pick next year (the perth kid, cant think of his name) - had his first kick in the last 5 minutes of the game yesterday, yep - he is going to turn our form around this wonder kid

We berate Grant Thomas as being a shit coach but good player manager, well at the moment, i would take Grant Thomas over pagan, becuase at least Grant Thomas is good with the players. Pagan cant even do that at the moment.

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

I agree with Bluemans comments... Pagans right....some of the players are not good enough for senior AFL footy and wont have careers at this club and what is wrong with him telling it like it is to their faces rather than leading them on and playing games...call it like it is.
Why beat around the bush and waste time on players who are not good enough and dont want to follow team rules and discipline.

Things are probably going to have to get worse before they get better and when you re-sign a coach you have to let him do it his way and when you are down you want your coach being demanding and making the hard decisons..its not a popularity contest and being popular doesnt make you a good coach..players have to do what they are told...any players not following directions and doing the right thing should be in the twos and then out at the end of season...

Imagine we do get Clark, Hurn, Murphy or whoe eva...what are they coming too....how can they be expected to perform with a team split into different camps and not working together....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

who played for United?

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

I do not believe that Dennis is above crititism as a coach, nor do I blieve that as a player you should not work as hard as you can for your coach despite your personal feelings.

_________________
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Just remember, you need to prune a rose bushback hard. It looks horrific and scarred when pruned, but soon turns into a thing of beauty, and blooms into new life. And whats more, if the pruning isn't done, then you risk damaging the plant for a long time.

Give Denis the secateurs!

















Man, that's deep...

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Sydney - Take the rest of the year off!

Prez - Well take out a St Kilda membership and Grant and his superbly performing saints are all yours

So tell me geniuses, if we sacked pagan what do you think would be the first thing a new coach might do come season's end?

Sack a few - maybe 10 or more? You bet your little bpottoomee he would - why/
Cos we have a fair few players who are not very good players - is that gentle enough for their egos, not that we have proof of course that pago Pago (I love that) did actually bawl ythem out, but hey a rumour is as good as an innuendo! So this new ciach sacks them gets the kids in (cos we have the drfat thingy happening again this year) and viola wunderkid!

Jesus listening to the moaning going on in here reminds me of why elliott felt he had to aqiuire hacks, demand we never rebuilt and paid everyone far too much!

Is pagan a good coach? Yes two flags good - and yes carey was good, shit so was sticks (2 flags!) and Hart wasn't a bad CHF - maybe Haffey was a dud! oh and what about them Hawthorn sides with Dermie - shit I could have coached them!

get real people, of course he had a champion CHF in carey and Haffey had hart and we had Sticks and jezza and Nichols and...oh i see you need talent to win a flag - and guess what/ That's pagan's plan - to win a flag, not to coddle a bunch of shit footballers along for a few months so we can
win a couple of games.

Now there have bene a few players who have disappointed - Whits apart from his last two games. Stevens - shit year. Sporn and Wiggo, I am beginning to fear were wasted picks.
Teague - I had my doubts about him eraly on, a good solid footballer with a great heart, but for him to win our best and fairest, well lets just say it shows we are shit. Bannister - doesn't get the ball. Davies - isn't getting it enough but i would perserve with him.

Point is these players are professionals, same as Pagan, now oif he decides they are not up to it - that's his choice and good on him! And he'll be right and I am glad he is prepared to call it for the Blues - I do not want another 10 years of this wallowing in the mud is gives me the shits!


Last year Pagan got a lot out of that group - far more than anyone expected - even Sticks in that wallsey interview was amazed at how well pago pago did. hey but what would sticks now, he was just a bloody champion CHF pffft. Now this year after signing the contract and getting the go ahead from the baord, pagan ahs enetered phase 2 and that involves phasing out those not needed/goodenough/lazy or wahtever.

the fat contracts are almost over, the picks are there again and we need to pick up some talent (Pagan and collo have been telling us this for a while because they know there is little difference betwene a mad Carlton supporter and a Mad Richmond one (maybe a truck load of a manure) - so take heed - we will be shit this year for good reason.

Also who is off side (if any in this gossipping little crap we call thread0? maybe those off side are those going? Gee, well piss off! Goodbye, Syornara! (?)

Yes I am behind Pagan, he has (unlike you SB or Chickenlittle) 2 flags and many, many runs on the baord. he came here with a dream and a will, he is sacrificing his hard earned reputation on this one and unlike some who might think it best to jump ship, he has signed up again for 3 more years and he is pushing this damn club back into some form of shape (go Collo!)
will he win our next flag?

Too early to call but this I do know, like Barrass at Melbounre, when pagan goes (with little or much success) this club will be in a far better shape than it was when he arrived. After the pat four years, that is what really counts!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

[Rip roaring applause for Dannyboy]

Well said geezer!

i havent said nor will i say sack pagan. I do like pagan and i do far prefer him to grant thomas, however coaching is as much about player management and welfare as it is match day decisions. and IMO Pagan has done poorly at both this year.

however, it gets me everytime and i just dont understand and it amazes me that he escapes any critiscim.

He has had a bad a year as coach as our playing staff.

yet every second or third post is about getting rid of the "hacks" yet never mentions pagan as having a crap year.

last year he was the messiah becuase we won ten games, this year that players are shit becuase we only win 2?

come on guys.

this year, pagan has made as many mistakes as some of our players, yet we are still told to believe in pagan and everything he is going is right. How dare we suggest that pagan isnt the all conquering all dancing savour that we all hoped him to be.

playing Kouta, Campo and the likes when it is clear they are either a. carrying an injury or b. just playing poorly serves no purpose what so ever.

Does that mean sack him. no, of course it doesnt.

But be fair.

There are alot of players that are having terrible years, but Pagan isnt doing much better.

I suppose what i really want to know is why is Pagan allowed to not come under any scrutiny? Please explain to me and the many others that have questioned alot of his moves this year and tell us all why he hasnt done anything wrong and why he doesnt deserve and critiscim!

The players are crap The same players won us ten games and the wizzer cup? How can they fall so far from being servicable and competive to being inept? How can the coaching staff and match committee not be as much to blame as the players themselves?

Explain that to me with a commonsence approach and i wont speak a bad word about pagan or anyone else involved with the coaching and match committee.

_________________
Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

Well said Dannyboy....

So which is it?

"i would take Grant Thomas over pagan"

or

"I do like pagan and i do far prefer him to grant thomas"


From where I sit Denis does get his fair share of criticism. But just because people aren't suggesting he be sacked, doesn't mean he is not being criticised. While I do agree that it may appear to some that Denis is getting off a bit easier than the players this could be the case because Pagan has coaching achievements that demand respect. What have our players got? Their performance on the field each week. Moreover, Kouta and Campo are our only premiership players. I can see why Pagan might seem to escape criticism over his players. Whether that criticism is misplaced or not only time will tell.

I agree that some of Pagan's recent team selections, and match day work seem to be slightly odd at times, but I'll back Pagan's judgement for a while longer yet.

We're having a crap year, and it's natural for the natives to get restless, but let's not forget the bigger picture. By that I mean the bigger picture of an individual's proven abilities to carry out their task, be it a player, a coach or an adminstrator.

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agreed Dannyboy

the mistake you are making Prez is you assume pagan is only thinking of this week's game. I think Pagan sees this year as just one small step, he needed to win the Wizzfizz and 10 last year for the reason's Mark outlines in another thread - nothing strange about that.

This year his purpose is different - he needs to work out who has to go - I'm prediciting 8/10 - baded on 4 early choices - elevation of 2/3 rookies and 2/4 others. (trades, PSD).

So how to do this and win 10 or more games? - 'umm, can't once certain players understand that I need to make a choice, might win a few games early, might not.'

'Didn't, shit now they'll drop off quick.'

'They did.'

See I think Pagan knew what was on the cards, think Collo (and board) did too and so the resigning. This club achknoledges that we lack the talent. You mightn't like it, i mightn't, but they accept we lack the talent. So their priority, and rightly so, is to boost our talent stocks.

Russell
Hartlett
Raso

the rookies

good start but nowhere near enough. Add this year and I will not be surprised if next as well. that is say another 8 early picks plus say 3 PSD/trades. Plus Rookie elevations.

We are talking about 18 players (very roughly) of which 12 might play regularly. 12 new faces with talent. Picked by Pagan to play his way. Now we have Fev and Fisher and AW and Carrots and T-Bird and (I think) Livo and Waite and out of Bentick, Simmo, Wiggo etc... A team emerges.

Then you'll see Pagan winning games 'cos he is aiming for the flag not to appease some supporters, the monetary demands of this club or his job reappointment.

Secondly,

criticise him all you want but its the Trade Pagan, or conact harping on the Pagan isn't up to it, 1 dimensional, old, a hack, etc, etc, that is just crappy bleating by who think this is an easy fix situation. It clearly is not. But rather than accept it isn't they want to roatet the caoch - gee that's a great path - ask Richmond, or worse ask me about certain horrible periods in carlton's life when we fell for this. A coach is either good or shit, the rest is pressure groups exerting their will upon a board. I do not think Pagan is shit.

So Pres, criticse him, make a call on selection, on a move (or lack thereof) that is fine and in fcat you'll porobably have mne agreeing sometimes, but let's not make statements like thomas is a people manager - have a look at that St Kilda side at the moment - how is Thomas managing those players? they may be happy - but they are losing!!!!!!!

Pagan is not pushing as hard this year as last year - of that oi have no doubt. This year he reminds me of how he carried himself in his first year. he expects poor results but he is REBUILDING (get used to this work, it is now part of a carlton supporter's vocab.).

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Good stuff there dannyboy, I like your morning/early afternoon posts.

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Great post Dannyboy-agree wholeheartedly!

if i was a rich girl, na na na-na na-na na-na na-na naaaaa.....

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Does anyone think that we might be doing what the AFL wants us to do. That it might not be Pagan or the list and that as a club in general we are towing the line that the AFL want. I know this might sound something right out of left feild but if Carlton had or do become sucessful in the next 2-3 years would this be a slap in the face to the AFL . Would it completely undermine their draft and salary cap if we were to win a flag before 2010.
Surely the last thing the AFL would want was success at Carlton. Clubs would be breaching caps all over the place if it only meant being down for 2-3 years

Its just a thought because no body seems to be able to point the finger at one particular issue as the cause of the clubs recent form. And I cant beleive for one minute we are as bad as we look.

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws