Exactly, crowds are up even though we're losing. Imagine attendance's and ratings if the ladder were something like this

1. Carlton
2. Collingwood
3. Essendon*
4. Richmond
5. Adelaide
6. West Coast
7. Brisbane
8. Sydney
9. Melbourne
10. Hawthorn
11. Port Adelaide
12. Fremantle
13. Geelong
14. Kangaroos
15. Bulldogs
16. St Kilda

You could tweak that a little, but apart from the fact we're on top the AFL would be having wet dreams over that.

If you took any 4 clubs out of the AFL it would struggle, if it was the 2 teams from SA and WA, or Sydney then the AFL would be in bad shape, but certainly the big 4 in Melbourne are vital.

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beat me to it.

look at the average attendance of games involving the big four and compare to all of the other games - and that is what i was referring to when i was talking about the big 4 contributing up to 60% of the attendance and the rest making up the numbers.

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

What you guys have failed to allow for is that the big clubs have a huge following, who, because of previous success, go to the footy regardless of ladder positions and form.

The teams currently in the top 8 are bandwagonners (if that's a word), in times past they couldn't give a shit about attending games because they got hammered every other week, now they've come out of the woodwork and THATS the difference in the attendance figures.

You can include richmond in that category too, although you'll see them drop off considerably as they keep losing.

We play Brisabane at the dome and pull 40,000 - the Saints wouldn't have got 15,000 with the same opposition 4 years ago.

So, this is why the AFL are so happy - Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon* supportes are a given (they'd get 30,000 for a reserves match if it was played at the G), regardless of form.

I don't deny that the AFL would suffer, short term, if the big four were lost completely all at once. But I have no doubt whatsoever that a national league could still prosper.

To suggest that one, or four clubs, are bigger than the league, and by default, the game itself is laughable. And you're kidding yourself more than I thought.

What you're basically saying is that Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane, Sydney and half of Melbourne only have an interest in the AFL because Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon* and Richmond exist. And you talk of crazy talk!

Just because you might think the world revolves around your theories doesn't mean they do.

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Football would all but die in Melbourne, and that's all that needs to happen. It might still survive literally but it'd be a pathetic ghost system

Maybe you're right, maybe you're not, but I think you're selling supporters of the other 6 Victorian clubs pretty short, not to mention the game itself. And frankly it's this type of Carlton is so great atttitude that's got us where we are right now. Stone motherless last, beacause we thought the other clubs wouldn't even dare to be better than us. While we were too busy stroking our own egos the footy world sped past.

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This isn't a Carlton issue, we haven't been on free TV much for the last 2 seasons. We've been complaining for ages and now we should be used to it. Let the Filth have their sh!t fight with Channel 10 for daring not to show one Collingwood game.

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The other 6 Vic clubs added together struggle to equal Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon*. Yeah the game might have sped past us a bit, but it certainly didnt speed past the other two. We still draw the crowds, get the membership etc. You like to be a sympathiser of the other teams but these are facts

You're right, there is no doubt that Collingwood and Essendon* are big clubs and that they drive a lot of the agenda, and have done in recent times, I just happen to think the game would survive without them that's all. And I have a feeling that the AFL would probably agree with me. Not that I say that to try and give my position any credence, I just think the AFL are so sure of themselves they probably think they could do whatever they like and still survive.

On membership figures as at 2005 the other 6 clubs would easily cover the Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon*. I accept your point about bandwagon supporters, but really, which club doesn't suffer from this. I would also concede that the big four clubs probably have more unsigned supporters than the other 6, but I just don't think that the AFL world would end if the big 4 clubs ceased to exist.

The game would still be a great game to play and watch. The supporters of the other 12 clubs would still support their clubs. Yes, the league would suffer, I believe in the short term, but I still reckon it could survive and I have no doubt whatsoever that the AFL would be prepared to operate without one, or all of the big four clubs should that scenario every happen. Mind, it's all specualtion as there are no signs that this is ever likely to happen. So I guess my point remains that the big 4 clubs are not bigger than the game. And Channel 10 seem to at least share a similar thought given their scheduling. We just cannot keep on thinking that the world revolves around Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon* and Richmond, because it doesn't.

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AFL seem to think it will attract plenty of interest as they've made it an all ticketed affair for AFL members!

maybe because fairweather supporters will actually have to go to the game now if they dont have foxtel.

then again the same fixture sold out last year (in a 66,000 sized G) and i'm pretty sure that it was on telly FTA.

it is a big game no doubt but only for carlton and pies supporters. the netural supporters would probably be more insterested in a finals shaping showdown.

Being a filth home game you can bet McChins will rev this game up like bejeezus 0n Ch9 to stick it to Ch10 when it's declared a sellout.

This whole situation would sit better with me if Ten played the "National competition" card every week, rather than taking a national game and then only broadcasting Lions games to Brisbane if they are being played at the same time as their "national game"..... I've seen Matty Campbell that many times on 10 this year, I thought he'd swapped stations....