Hmmm with this tittle prob people will say all manner of things but maybe good to add other aspects of what makes a side good and bad

We know our list is weak in areas but there are some good things in it just hasnt gelled together and has poor morale and confidence.

Some key ingredients for a good side and we can relate more to the great blues sides of the past but more with recent teams such as Brisbane.

First is depth where we severly lack depth so that if one key midfielder is lost or Ruckman or forward / backman the teams whole structure is thrown out of wack. Most of the year we have been missing a key player IE French in the ruck or Thornton or Livo in the backline ... Fev in the forward line. If we loose one of these players we suffer greatly we cant cover T-Bird going down or French out of the Ruck ect ...most other teams can cover losses.
Our Key player Depth is sadly lacking and brings me to my next point.

An area of note that differentiates most teams in the competition from the Blues is cohesion or players playing together over long periods to know each others game plan and be confident in each others abilities. if you break down the Blues in the 3 main areas

Backline when they are playing - T-Bird / Livo / Teague / Carazzo Houla other 1 is optional ... This area is improving but still lacks a tight nit 6 players but is the most stable baring injury

Forward Line - FEv / Whits Waite - Other 4 players are mixed come in go out but options will improve with Fisher / Betts / Deluca

Mid Field - Kouta / Campo / Stevo ..... the rest of the players are all mixed and none are permanent could be one of Bentick / Jono /Magrath, Walker / SPorn / Simpson / Scotland or Davies.
The midfiled is the weakest area with around 3 key players and the rest are a lottery depending on form or injury but we dont have a strong permanent midfield more 3 core and the rest could be different every week.

Also to add to the side a good side has players who have played together as a group for many seasons most recently Brissie which have a cohesive group.. Carlton has a very mixed List and having lots of new faces over 2 seasons as well as cutting many players out of the side ... so we have no strong team development of having players working together for an extended time period. The closest playing list to ours is the Hawks with similar problems but with kids rather than retreads being rotated into the team.

On the plus side we have a core of Kids Blackers / Raso / Russell / Santanata / Hartlett / mix in Betts / Bentick / Simpson who have played extended periods in the VFL all togther and in a wining culture which may at least introduce these guys into the seniors come 2006

And of course last big ingredient is Leadship but i think we have covered that and know that we have severe problems in leadership in the side.. And who dont properly support our emrging 2nd teer players and younger players ..

So in summary for the Blues list
List is weaker than other more for the balance and mix though we do have some talented guys the mix is not good enough

List dosnt have key play makers / Stars prob only ones would be maybe Waite / Fev

List lack player depth any key player missing and the Blues leave a gaping whole which cant be covered. So for us to be competative we need all key players in loose one or two and the team exposes huge holes

List lacks cohesion - Team lacks balance and players have no chance to settle and play consistant football together. So confidence in players abilities and playing style changes from week to week.

Leadership is the last link in the equation which is sadly missing from past Carlton teams which had players like SOS / Ratten / Bradley / Hickmont / Mackay ect in recent times nobody since these players have left have stepped up so we lack direction encouragement and support on the Field all keys to on field leadership.

Coaching - well i think we do have a good coach but with all of the above the message does not seem to get through i only hope that this will change in 2006

Skill?
Yep, that's missing.
Passion?
Gone.
Intensity?
None of that.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

Mental toughness - we've got none of that. There's no "steel" in this side. Only a half-dozen players have it but they are all kids who've played less than 60 games. That's not good enough, our lack of a 2nd tier and top tier is hurting us big time in this department. Fix this up and you're already a lot better off with or without more talent.

We need talent no question but talent with no application ain't much good. Or is talent enough Lance, Anthony and Scott?

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Passion/Pride in the Carlton jumper.

Many people here bag St Kilda for some reason but when I watched them play on Sunday they play with pride for their club. Even when they are down and not playing well their pride got them over the line.

In our club this is non-existent - something that has only crept in this year I think.

'horoko'

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Only stars we have are Fev and Stevens..Stevens isnt perfoming like one though but as some have suggested he appears to be carrying an injury.

The list has too many D-H players..thats dud to hack players...our youngsters are not that bad but whats in between Fev/Stevens and the youngsters apart from a few like Lappin/Waite/Thornton is poor and thats the problem...

As for depth..we have good depth in average to hack players......

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Yep i agree that our talent is thin though i do believe we have some but an issue that i thought can also account for poor performances comes from players not playing week in week out with each other. Also with the many new faces the chance for plying with the same team players over a sequence of seasons is not in existance at present with the Blues.

If you rem the Blues teams of the previous decade the list was stable except for maybe minor changes with injury or form but 15 of the 22 players would have played with each other over many seasons allowing for maybe 7 from list changes and injuries / form

The Blues list has changed so much in 3-4 years that i reckon that we have maybe only had 7-10 players in this time period. That means over a season there is a variable of half the team that is changed.

I hope that by 2006 this will be eliminated and we start getting a stable core of players who play week in week out .... i guess the hard part is finding that core of 15 players something that we havnt been able to achieve in the last 3-4 years

Ever played the game Clem or you just reading from the manual? To what do they need application? Mental toughness for what?

Anthony is in the list again Clem but not Nick hey!

Same old story with you scott. You never change. You'll accuse me of the same but bleh, i can take it.

No application to the tasks given them, no application to the betterment of the team through team-oriented performances. No passion, which is a sign of application and dedication from the old stagers.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

And you never change. happy now.

How do you know what task has been given them Clem? Pagan keeps picking the same players are they doing what he wants because he keeps picking them?
No passion, which is something that you can show when playing for your coach why no passion then?

You can apply this and apply that but to me football apart from talent is based on CONFIDENCE. All sport is based around confidence how do you get it either by
1. Experience
or
2 When you realise that your better or just as good as your opponent
or
3. When you know your role in the team.

How many players have 1 of these?

Once again have you played football?

then is leadership not a neccessary ingredient in a team sport?

if not why do we strive to get leaders?

name a premiership team with a poor leader - or is that chicken and egg stuff?


oh and i played football.

I've had sex too

and play chess

though i am not so good at darts.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Don't have to play football per se, any team sport is the same.

Funny you go after the same people but fail to offer any posts more than about 10 lines long. If you want to have fun that way, well, keep doing it, but personally I think it adds nothing to the discussion.

Just because I fail to mention Stevens.

There, I mentioned Stevens as failing to show any toughness in the last few weeks. Happy?

You never will be.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Mental toughness makes you run when you feel you have nothing left.
It allows you to run back with the flight of the ball instead of giving half efforts.
And it allows you to retain confidence for more than 10 minutes.
It allows you to play injured and not drop your head and make excuses.

Application gets you out on the track to practice your deficiencies instead of just accepting them.
It makes you chase when you should and play to instructions.
Its the reason Karl Norman will be playing bush footy next year and Bret Thornton will be an AFL player.

I played and/or coached over 200 games of suburban footy Scott but I played with guys who pathetic application.
They are life skills, not football skills.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

That's precisely my point scott. Application is linked to character and that's a trait you carry around with you for life, not just on the football field.

Trying to show I know nothing about football even though I may never have played, that's a fine argument scott. Sounds like the "i'm a better supporter than you" mentality really and that I find pretty disappointing. if that wasn't your intention then I will issue a full apology but it seems like you think i know nothing about the game. Well, I watch my fair share of games, I read and digest as much as I can about the game. I have friends who've played it and talked to me about processes and particularly jobs they've had to do on certain players etc. We should all be students of the game rather than trying to suggest other supporters aren't as knowledgable just because they haven't played.

Team sports are all the same, if I play soccer and I have a set position and job to mind a certain player than that's the same. I need mental application to stick to my job rather than ball-watching and refusing to follow my man up field who decides he'll become a link man for the backs' run forward. No difference in the traits required to be a team player, to fight out the game, to be disappointed when a player gets around you, to fight to chase your opponent, to pressure him etc etc. Sound familiar? Well, that's what players in AFL require, they need to be able to fight out the game, continually want to contest, to pressure/do 1%ers.

Application has nothing to do with footy. It's to do with character.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Its all too hard.... its all too hard.... its all too hard.... its all too hard...

thats the mentality of our senior group..

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Well Clem NEVER SAID that I'm better NEVER tried to show you didn't know anything about football NEVER! As I've said before anyone can have an opinion on the game thats anyone! You seem to have a very good understanding of the game and some very good opinions and I've read them for 5 years. But these days you talk definites "should" "this is" "thats what" etc not "maybe" "could be" "probably" "I think". Its starting to come out as theories but not from practical experience.
Its also you who has put the on a few of your replies to my posts not this one. What does the mean to you Clem is it you think your right I'm wrong or I've got no idea? Why can you roll your eyes at me but I can't ask if you have played footy? Why do you get to say I offer nothing to the disscussion with 10 line posts but what I get from you is
Maybe you could have a think about it instead of playing the victim!

Is your dislike (or dissapointment) of Campo Kouta and Whitnall based on what you read from someone else or what you see yourself?

Yes I do believe you miss the finer points of the game by not playing ie. people who are very critical (the players are shit/hacks etc) when players spray shots when kicking into a strong wind would probably not have played the game yet the ones who do would probably say thats dissapointing but shit I know how hard that kick was. Tryants has said height means nothing in football before but has also said he doesn't play. Do you think he really knows if height is important when playing football or is he guessing? No I don't think people who have never played footy have no idea but if the do yes I think it adds anywhere up to 5% to 50% of a better understanding of the game. Your the one attacking me with the so why didn't you answer the question straight away? Do you think you miss something by not playing?
Is Blue Vain telling me he has vast experience playing and coaching football over many years or is he telling me he knows more then me because he has played and coached?

From memory you are about 25 so I suggest to you go and join a club and experience footy first hand and see what its like. Right up until I played my last game of football I was still finding new things about the game.

Don't want an apology

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm not saying you can't have an opinion.

My opinion is that Campo et al. are not pulling their weight, I think it's fairly obvious even from a relative outsider's point of view.

I think you can miss something by not playing, but you can't miss things like mental application, failure to be accountable to your opponent - that's almost obvious I would say. I don't think not playing footy means you are less knowledgable about those particular things. Subtle nuances yes, I agree and conceded that.

I went slightly overboard with my last post and I apologise for that, I just don't understand why you have a problem with me attacking certain senior players even though i miss out on Stevens. Personally it's because I see Stevens at least trying, being disappointed on the field when things aren't happening. The others, they seem as though they couldn't care less. That's just what I see and that's what makes me angry...

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky