BV, Pagan isn't the recuiting guy. He didn't pick Urch, Perry etc etc.

You have to look at the players he developed.

Of the top list, and not including Archer (from the early lot), he only really grew Harvey and Simpson from draft picks. The rest were either picked around the time he left, or have developed most of their careers (now) under laidley.. or blokes like Rawlings who have improved under Laidley.

Others, like Grant and Colbert, were trades.... and good players when he got them (like Carey and Stevens were....)

Pickett's another one of Pagan's. I'm sure there are others I just can't think of. Certainly blokes like Watt have become regulars where they weren't before... even though Watt is crap. Makepeace is another.

To coach a successful side you need to:
a) Manage elite talent
b) Develop elite talent
c) Maintain consistent performance from non-elite talent

At Carlton, Pagan has:
- not had much of a).. but seen Lance, Campo falter (culture?... not his fault), while Kouta, Lappin and Stevens have shone (until recently)
- done a good job of growing Fevola, Waite, Walker, Thornton....
- did REALLY well with c) last year, but really dropped the ball with that this year.

Look, I'm not anti-Pagan... I'm an "informed judge" who wouldn't for a second think Pagan was infallible when we got him, and he certainly isn't now.

And, between you and me, if we had blokes like Urch, Grima, McIntosh etc.. they'd be walk-up starts in our side. Urch and Grima have the same pedigree as Simpson, and we talk him up like anything. If Urch and Grima where drafted to Carlton, they'd have both played 20 games by now.

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Pagan needs time to show what he can do.
Hes working against a bunch of softcocks who think they have the right to be given the extra year... and extra superannuation like the players before them.

This will be sorted out.. we will bottom out for threeish years and we will then start moving forward.


The most pathetic scenario with Kouta was gathering the ball on the half back flank right in front of me ... that awesome muscle bound hard hitting Goddard ran at him to tackle him.. Kouta looked up at him as he was coming and SHIT HIMSELF... not taking the tackle and running out of bounds with it.. he gave Bowyer a hospital handball that missed the target and the Saints goaled....

It kind of said it all about the commitment of our senior group and why were where were at currently.

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Blokes like Rawlings!
As I asked above, who are these blokes like Rawlings?
Most of the players who are carrying the Kangas now were developed and drafted by Pagan.
See my list above.

BTW, Carey and Stevens were kids when they went to North.
Carey was 17 from memory.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

You have some errors and also overlook the fact that when talking about Pagan's record and developing youth its the premiership players that are of interest and whether he truly developed them

1. carey was recruited from north adelaide and into the north under 19s
2. longmire was also recruited from the country (Corowa-Rutherglen Football Club)
3. Archer was recruited from VMFL zone
4. Other key players in their flags Martyn, King, Blakey, Schwass, Laidley, McKernan probably came through zone recruitment or the under 19s (outside of drafting) - and no doubt I have missed a few 10yr players as well!

But lets have a look at the players u listed
Harvey - 3rd round selection (95) - Good player
simpson - 1st round selection (93) - Good player
hale - 1st round selection (01), 7th overall - 3games in 03, 11 in 04, breakout season this year (so NOT developed under pagan)
jones - 4th round (00) - average player, played 20 of his 58 games (by start of this season) is 04 so didnt really develop under pagan
pratt - 3rd round (00), delisted, rookie elevation at brisbane (04), redrafted by roos in the 6th round (04) - average player, didnt develop under pagan
Petrie - 2nd round selection (00) - average/good player - played 13 games in 02 (4 of which had 0 possessions, 4 games under 5, and only 2 over 10 touches, 9 goals), breakout season was 03 (22 games, 12 games over 10 touches, 8 over 5 touches, no 0 possession games, 28 goals) so arguably developed under laidley
Harris - 1st round selection (00), 14th overall - 6 games in 02 (2 of which were 0 touches), 15 in 03, 22 in 04 - so 03/04 were breakout seasons under laidley
motlop - 1st round selection (00), 8th overall - good player, 6 games in 02 (1 0 possessions, 2 goals, 3b), 15 games in 03 (16goals, 13b), 22 games in 04 (34goals, 25b) - again breakout seasons in 03/04 were under laidley
makepiece - 6th round selection (99) - consistent average/good player (a Pagan youth member!)
watt - 1st round selection (97), 14th overall - average player, 10 games in 02 (4 with no touches), 22 games in 03, 22 games in 04 so another laidley player
rawlings - 1st round selection (98), 15th overall - good tagger, average player - breakout season in 02 - 3 games with 0 touches in the rounds 2, 3 and 8 and then played every game from round 13 onwards (a pagan youth member!)
harding - rookie elevation (01) - average/solid player that has struggled the past couple of seasons (12 games in 04, 8 games this year) - a pagan youth member!
kingsley (presumably the cats player) - zone selection for Port (96), traded to roos with Wade Kingsleyfor Paul Geister (96), delisted, rookie listed by roos in 98, elevated in 99 and then traded to cats for 3rd round pick - almost not even worth dissecting but just so you know, did nothing under pagan but under thompson is doing well as a KP forward (career goals average is close to Fev's).

So lets see... of the 14 Pagan draftees u listed (13 if u exclude kingsley) only 5 could be said to be actual Pagan players (Harvey, simpson, makepiece, rawlings and harding) - These players were picked between 93 through to 01 (so 5 players in 8 years). Not really the record of outstanding youth development. Its actually interesting to see the progress of 1st round draft picks under pagan

Hale (pick 7) - drafted in 01, 3 games in 03
Harris (pick 14) - drafted in 00, 6 games in 02 (2 with 0 possies)
Motlop (pick - drafted in 00, 6 games in 02
Watt (pick 14) - drafted in 97, 10 games in 02 (4 with 0 possies)
Rawlings (pick 15) - drafted in 98, 13 games in 02 (3 with 0 possies)

So most Pagan youth drafted players didnt actually debut until their 2nd season (which is fine) although you will get the occassional players who dont debut until years 4 and 5.


Now the trades
Grant (originally priority pick 3) - traded schwass away
Rocca (originally pies zone) - traded away 2nd round pick
Colbert (originally 1st round pick at geelong in 92) - traded away in Cameron Mooney and picks 15 (David Spriggs), 17 (Ezra Bray) and 47 (Corey Enright) in 1999 (according to North website though I suspect its wrong?)
Sinclair (originally 2nd round, Freo) - traded away peter bell in 2000

Were they good trades?
schwass was a forced trade - win/win for both clubs
Rocca - depends on the players available after pick 30 (cant find the list)
Colbert - not sure on the actual deal but if what the north site has is correct then Geelong won out of that
Sinclair - freo winners
Porter - draft picks involved but most unbiased football supporters would rate mckernan way ahead of porter.

So BV - perhaps you would consider the above and come back to me as to WHY Pagan is so good at developing youth

Carey had already played SANFL before going to north (I presume seniors though not 100% sure)
Stevens was from shepparton though not sure what he did

THe thing is back then recruiters could approach ANY player and pick them up. North with one of the better resourced recruiting departments in the league picked up a LOT of good players which other clubs missed out on.

Schwass /Grant a win win?
Grant has been at least twice the value Schwass was for the Swans and is still playing.
Simpson with pick 14 a good player? Please tell me how many "good" players there are in the league over the last 10 years.
How about David King with pick 46?
Harvey at pick 47 gets a good player rating also?
Peter Bell taking in the pre season draft.
Bryon Picket with pick 67.
Troy Makepeace with pick 81.

The Coibert deal was for Cam Mooney to Geelong plus pick 15 (Spriggs)
Kangaroos are well in front there at the moment.
Corey Jones with pick 60.
Motlop with pick 8.
Harriss with pick 14.

When you draft a ruckman such as Hale in 2001 when do you think you will see the player really come on? 2 years is not enough. Stop being so biased and realise that Pagan is a proven champion coach.

Laidley is coaching the kids Pagan drafted and developed so I don't know how he's regarded as a poor development coach.The great man has premierships at under 19 level and reserves as well, so he knows how to build better footballers if they are players who want it.

If he had the Dockers job they'd be a finals side this year and they'd still dump Connolly if he became available.

I actually worked going with the list that BV provided but just to keep you happy

shwass/grant - was a win win as BOTH clubs got what they wanted. It was a forced trade and sydney had to pay the early pick

In terms of drafting pretty much most drafting pre 95 or so was highly speculative. Pretty much the entire 90's was a period of change. But yes simpson, king, harvey, bell, pickett were/are all good players. Makepeace I mentioned already

Corey Jones played 6 games in 02 (so not a pagan developed player or is on the cusp)
Motlop was mentioned - 6 games in 02 (1 0 possessions, 2 goals, 3b), 15 games in 03 (16goals, 13b), 22 games in 04 (34goals, 25b) - again breakout seasons in 03/04 were under laidley
Harris - also monentioned - 6 games in 02 (2 of which were 0 touches), 15 in 03, 22 in 04 - so 03/04 were breakout seasons under laidley

If you read my post you would have noted that I said it was FINE that the players didnt actually start playing games until their second year (no different to waite etc). Have a look at brisbane and you will see plenty of players that have spent a few years playing reserves developing.

I have NEVER said that pagan cant coach - He can coach but he isnt a great coach. Any team with a spine of In martyn, archer, carey, longmire (non of which were drafted) you are halfway to a flag especially if u can get some half decent midfielders. Mckernan was actually league MVP in 96 so they had good rucking stocks as well.

What I am saying that he isnt extracting the best out of our players at this point in time and that his much vaunted youth development is overrated. We pay 600k+ (some have quoted 800+) per season for a coach to develop players yet most 80+% of the list is having a poor season. Also most coaches in the league will 'unearth' on average 2 good players a season whilst they are coach just through list turnover etc. Pagan hasnt been unearthing much more than that amount so in that respect his player development is overrated.

This is the question you asked 4th Chicken.
I answered it.

Now you're saying-

"You have some errors and also overlook the fact that when talking about Pagan's record and developing youth its the premiership players that are of interest and whether he truly developed them "

You say its the premiership players that are now of interest.
But you should only allow for players drafted/developed in the very late 90s - 2002.

As far as I know, North won their last flag in 1999.

Shall we also narrow it down to blonde headed players called Fred?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Forget about what Pagan has done in the past look at his recent record.I dont give jack shit about whayt he acheived at North I am only interested in what he can acheive at Carlton and so far it is very little. Lost the confidence of two playing groups in three years says it all to me.

There have only been a select few coaches who have coached sides to a flag at two clubs [ Matthews , Parkin ,Jeans ,Barassi]. Pagan is not in their class and hasn't got the ability to buy players like these guys did. We would be better off developing a young coach with a young side . while we are letting Whitnal Lappin Campo and Kouta go Pagan should go with them he has shown us very little in the nearly three years he has been at Carlton

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They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

No 3 from the Gabbatoir is the man.

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All my dangerous friends

But he's had @#$%&! all to work with.

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Twitter - @johnfeeney24