[preface]

I understand the climate in which we find ourselves and, regardless of how defensible a particular course of action may be, that it leaves me so very saddened to be party to such thoughts. I also don't want the following to be seen, or interpreted as an attack on those who post with such fervour in defence of "The Black Plague" but more as a comment on the paradox that is sweeping control of our minds.

[/end preface]





Of late I have been partaking less and less in post match discussion. This is not due to any lack in enthusiasm for following our beloved club, indeed I still find myself doing daft pre-match rituals that I hope will bring a sign of a victory, but more as way of escaping the reality of Carlton c2005. There can be no denying the extra benefit Carlton internet communities have provided myself, especially given my geographical handicap. So boards like these go some small way to bring me closer to the action, closer to Melbourne and, of course, closer to Carlton.

But there is no hiding here. There may be some beating around the bush, and varying degrees of debate, but the fact of the matter is the truth is in these internet communities. Sometimes it may be a little hard to find, but if you're prepared to find it you will. And, sadly, I don't think I can handle the truth.

This morning I sat down with my breakfast and psyched myself up to go through the latest round of posts since yet another loss. A loss in which, while we played so much better than the previous two weeks it is scary, to all but people like us the result was never in doubt about half way through the first quarter. What doom and gloom would I find? Who would be the hack du jour? Who would be to blame for another failure?

To be honest the fallout wasn't that bad, but what I did see was so much worse than I could ever have imagined. The symptoms have been there for so long now, alas I've been unwilling, unable, or both, to prepare myself for the actuality of these symptoms. And what did I see?

I saw The Black Plague. It has been around for a while now, but today it really grabbed me by the guts and wrenched me more than I could ever have imagined. It’s got me. How long have I got left?

I saw serious discussion about hoping we lose to the team 15th on the ladder to ensure that we finish 16th. Otherwise known as last, the bottom, the St Kilda position. As noted in my preface I can comprehend the theory behind this, but the practice I just cannot fathom.

Before I go on I'd just like to add a few names and numbers...


The numbers: 1906, 1907, 1908, 1914, 1915, 1938, 1945, 1947, 1968, 1970, 1972, 1979, 1981, 1982, 1987, 1995.

The names: Wayne Harmes (1979), Bruce Doull (1982), David Rhys-Jones (1987), Greg Williams (1995).

And something else: 1897-2001. 2002-?


Just have a read of those words and numbers in italics. Digest them, I'll come back to them in a moment.


...So what have we become? What is this plague that is sweeping Carlton supporters in such proportions? Why? Did I read this right? Do we actually want to come last? Yes, I believe we do. Why? I just don't understand it. Well, like I said I really do, but I wish I didn't. Is this what we have become?

At this point I'm not really interested in the merits, if you can honestly call it that, of this particular train of thought, the “tâ€

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dont worry mate

not all of us think like that.

i for one want to win every week

couldnt give a stuff about draft picks

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

Hey, I read all of that, do I get a medal?

Seriously great post there camelboy.

I am nowhere near as passionate as most of the posters here. When we lose it hurts a bit but I am over it quickly and on the flipside when we win I don't get too carried away, even for premierships. I just enjoy following the club and whatever happens, happens.

It is easy to see how 'The plague' can effect the most passionate of our supporters. Just as the difference between love and hate can be just a simple flick of a switch, those who passionately support our club can 'switch' to barracking for failure. I understand the rationale and don't begrudge it, it is just a different form of barracking.

It does get a bit galling when those that do not have the plague are pilloried as idiots.

Personally I do not have the plague, if we finish 15th it will not worry me, if we finish 16th it will not worry me, whatever will happen will happen, I just keep looking forward to the uncertainty that the future holds.

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Great post! Its not the fact that people want to lose and finish last its that they're so adamant and vocal about it that annoys me I think

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Great post Camel......

It's been a long season with a while to go still.

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Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me

Can the guts of that post be passed on to the club? That belongs on there, as a reminder to us all not to fall into the trap that the AFL has so delicately laid.

WE ARE CARLTON

WE DO NOT TANK

WE DO NOT AIM TO LOSE, SHORT OR LONG TERM

F*CKING SMASH THE HAWKS BLUEBOYS

I SAID IT IN 2002 - I NEVER WANT TO GO THROUGH THIS AGAIN

For all of the sprays that we have given St Kilda supporters over the journey, we have become them. It sickens me to my stomach to see our proud supporters prostituting themselves for the lure of a high draft pick.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

im not gunna beat around the bush....i was one of the earliest people on here to voice their opinion about the need to tank games....
of coarse, i was saying this when we were 11-12th on the laddre...now that we are last it really doesnt matter, however, if the difference bettween getting murphy and not getting him costs us a premiership in the next 10 years then my thoughts are justfied....id hate for that to happen...but its a huge possibility considering the "shallow" bowl of potential stars in this years draft...frankly id rather see us lose this season and dominate the next 5-10 years with a swag full of gun players (we already have a few of them) over winning a few cheap, pointless victories....i just hope that when we are winning week in, week out again you respect the vision i have promoted this season....

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R A D I C A L B R O T H E R S

Inspired by the One-Minute Sculptures of Erwin Wurm

"All in all is all we are..."

Haha, for those that can be stuffed reading what I wrote, Deano has said the same thing in far less words!

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wonderful post hump man. This is a terrbile season and we search fpor straws everywhere but I think the post saying the game against Hawthorn as the most important game of the year and that we must lose summed it up.

We have lost the plot.

I understand the problem.

Given how bad we are i even understand that less than 5 is better than 6 wins.

But every week i go along. I buy that record. I have my pen.
And i hope and belive and do a jog and a million other things thinking the markings on the carlton side will be greater than the markings on the other.

the trips home this year hurt

as they should

and we will be back camelman

with or without those stupid picks

but with them we can never ever bag st Kilda's collection again.

they just did it better

without them

well it will be harder

but maybe

it will also mean more.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

The encapsulates the problem.

People like The Shag (certainly not just The Shag) actually believe that Marc Murphy is a vital pre-requisite for future Carlton success. It's an amazing view and in my opinion a preposterous one (as I've argued at length in another thread).

Shag, you do know that the draft doesn't end at pick 1. We're likely to have picks 2 and 4. You want a "swag full of gun players". Would you not expect to pick up gun players with picks 2 and 4?

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

It is a very good post Camel and in all you say is correct and i certainly didnt advocate tanking last year for draft picks also i dont look to next year to try and get next year best 2 picks. I am only looking at this year and i reckon i started analysing the list the leadership the skill level after the Richmond thumping this year. That was the wrost performance i have ever witnessed the Blues play. That wasnt the carlton i was used too that wasnt the Blues Spirit that was the most embarrising display of Fotball i have ever seen any team play in the past 3 years. I se this year as a chance to reset a win now means nothing to me this year i have endured the jibes from all supporters witnessed some pitiful performances seen zero leadership from our senior bodies seen players hold the club to unrealistic demands. This year has just been a nitemare and yes i am resigned to haping that the Nullants have success and seeing some of the kids and 2-3 year players progress to numb the continuous thumpings and poor performances. This year we make a stand clean out restructure the coaching (assistants... Get the best available talent we need that to get a good injection of talent but also to lift the spirits of some of our more promising players) Remove any last reminenents of negative influences and start fresh for 2006 and i want the team to avenge and devote next year to the crap they have served us up for the last 3 years.This years gone and the best thing we can do is plan for 2006 and really build and put in place the building blocks for a rejuvnated and ressurgent Blues that i have enjoyed watching for the past 3 decades.

I think the Tigers Game scarred me for this season something i want erased next year.

Who cares...

I go to the footy to watch the boundary umpires these days.

The only team performing worse than we are

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Love Cricket? Love me

hence the reason i brought up the fact that i wanted us to tank since round 5....when we were floating around the 8....

my words exactly "whats the point in getting another 11th-12th finish? its not good enough for finals and its not bad enough for good picks..."

i also said in that last post that id hate it if not getting murphy cost us a few premierships...
so dont label me as an idiot or put me into these groups because if you'd bothered to understand what i said you might see that i never said what u believe i said, f*ckwit....

now, you cant sit here and tell me that what i have said all season isnt true...if we had of tried hard all season we would have finished 11th-12th...what good is that to us? another no.9 pick in a crap draft.....what a bonus prize for not making the finals ....

now that we are down the bottom we no longer need to "tank" but i will say it again....i was on the bandwagon a long time ago...when it was a necessity to "tank", but we no longer need to....but, if not getting murphy does cost us in the future i will be overly pissed....

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R A D I C A L B R O T H E R S

Inspired by the One-Minute Sculptures of Erwin Wurm

"All in all is all we are..."

What you don't understand Shag, and what I'm trying to say, is that there is other talent out there apart from Marc Murphy. My earlier post was trying to explain this to you. If Murphy goes pick 1 and we have picks 2 and 4, you could reasonably expect something decent with those picks! Shag, getting Murphy or not getting Murphy will NOT determine whether or not we win a flag in the near future.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

i know that, but the difference between picks 1-2 and picks 9-10 are huge in this years draft....and that is the reason i was on the tanking wagon...back in the day it was looking like we were headed for another 10-12th placing on the ladder...now you cant tell me we would benefit enough from a pick 9-10 over a pick 1-2...that is the reason i wanted us to tank...why get 10th pick when we need a top 3 pick?..

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R A D I C A L B R O T H E R S

Inspired by the One-Minute Sculptures of Erwin Wurm

"All in all is all we are..."

No, I was the one that wanted to be a loser first. It was me. It was me. I was the first loser on here. You can ask all the others!

Fair dinkum.



Here is the point.

















































And here is The Shag.

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A great post camelboy, and I'm going to go all bipolar on you right now. Because half of me is applauding you (quietly, providing conclusive proof that the sound of one hand clapping is rather quiet) and the other half is agreeing with you, but acknowledging the fact that this thinking will get us nowhere.

My earliest Carlton memory is the 1970 Grand Final, and the effect it had on my Carlton-supporting mother, and my Collingwood supporting uncle. I was deemed too young to go to the 1972 grannie, but was there in person to witness 79, 81, 82, 87 and 95. Plus 86, 93 and 99.

So I know how great our club has been in the latter years of the VFL.

I also happen to believe that our downfall was all us Carlton people BELIEVING we were better than everyone else. Oh, it's one thing to brag in the pub at the expense of your mates - that's what supporting's all about.

But I think that most Carlton people started to believe it.

And any student of football history will tell you that we won those flags above by being smarter than everyone else. By playing the system better than everyone else. Not necessarily by working harder, but by playing the (off-field) game better than anyone else.

We poached Barrasi. We bought players. We were ruthless in doing the things that (a) could be done within the system and (b) needed to be done to ensure our prosperity.

Then we blew it all by thinking 'We're Carlton, we don't rebuild. We're Carlton, we don't fail. We're Carlton, failure is just not an option.'

So here we are, at a crossroads of sorts.

Personally, I want to see another sustained period of excellence culminating in a Premiership or two. More for my kids than myself, because I've already had a lifetime of football happiness.

And I think that we're stupid and anti-Carlton (not the JACK ELLIOT, 90'S ERA CARLTON THAT WAS BLIND AND PIGHEADED AND INFLEXIBLE AND BIG AND DUMB) but anti-the Carlton that was nimble and smart and cunning and clever and did what it had to do, no matter what the cost... I think we're stupid and anti-Carlton to want to win a couple of meaningless home and away games that we'll all forget in a year or two, if it in ANY WAY harms our ability to create that period of sustained excellence.

If you have any Richmond friends, ask them if they'd rather turn back the clock, win another game last year and see DeLideo playing for Hawthorn.

Any West Coast friends? Ask them if they'd like to have won another game or two that they've already forgotten and see Judd playing for the Kangas or someone.

Any St Kilda friends? Ask them if they'd rather have eked out a few more wins and have Livo playing for them instead of Riewoldt and Kossi.

Ask yourself. Do you wish that we cobbled together another win or two against whoever in a couple of home and away games and not have Andrew Walker?

Camelboy, I know what you're saying, and no-one hates the system more than me. But while I'm passionate and get misty-eyed with the best of them whenever I see cheesy Carlton highlights tapes of great moments gone by, I'm also a pragmatist.

Like we were in the early 60's, we're down. Collo was there, he'd know. And back then, we used every trick in the book, used every angle, to claw our way back up again.

I say it's anti-Carlton NOT to use the system to our advantage. A club ruthlessly aiming to build its list WOULD throw this weekend's game against Hawthorn. I know we're not supposed to say it quite like that, but why hide behind the euphemism of 'playing the kids'?

Essendon* threw that final round game against Richmond in 2000, to screw up our finals draw and put themselves in a better position to win the flag that year.

It was a strategic move to better their chances of ultimate success. And I applaud them for it. I hate them for it, but I applaud them all the same.

They lost to win. And I hope we lose to win this weekend. I really do.

That man he speaks in tongues. He has the Plague.

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I probably could have said in fewer words, but certainly couldn't have said it better. You are spot on with exactly how I feel as well Camel.

We are all arguing essentially over quite small differences.

I personally think we should adopt the pre-Elliot culture Carlton had.

To me that was exactly a part of what JohnM said. Do EVERYTHING smarter than the other clubs.

The very basis should be using the draft to draft kids and then develop them (something we have only started to do seriously from the 2004 draft).

On top of that base we should be smarter in every other way possible.

In player management.
In player development.
In recruiting.
In coaching.
In injury management.
... and 100 other factors.

As far as I can tell we are putting this process into place, draft kids and develop them.

Being blinded by the priority picks is like a drug, when do you tell yourself to stop.

I understand pick 1 will give you a better chance of getting to point A a bit quicker. But those 100 other factors are more important than the difference between picks 1 and 2.

I fear that if we are blinded by chasing the easy and quick fix we as a club will again lose sight of the bigger picture.

The 'we do not rebuild' culture was all about taking shortcuts to a premiership without doing the hard yards. The tanking culture to me seems to be quite similar in many ways.

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