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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:36 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Bring out yer Deeeaaaddd!!!


I hate losing. I hate the thought of losing like this for years to come.

I don't care as much about premierships as I suspect most of you do. Me? I just want to watch my team play and have a win. Really, premierships are just here today, gone tomorrow - ask Port supporters.

But going to watch your team or turning on the telly to watch, and actually enjoying yourself, being happy at the end of the game at least some of the time.

That's what I follow Carlton for.

I want a competitive team - I know it will be a few years. I don't care if we get Murphy or not. I know we'll improve our list quite a bit whether we finish 15th or 16th.

All I know is this: I want to beat Port, I want to beat Essendon*, I want to beat Hawthorn, I want to beat Richmond, I want to beat Collingwood, I want to beat Hawthorn.

I know it's near-sighted but I'd much rather have some joy in the here and now than suffer in the hope of happiness 3 years down the track.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:40 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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BB2005.. you keep talking about "other talent besides Murphy" but you also reckon youre not a draft guru....
see its easy to pretend its easy..... that stuff is just going to fall into our lap like Laurie Angwin and Karl Norman....
Its just going to happen isnt it???

Were going to win the premiership with a hotch potch crew of average footbalers who cant kick straight.. are head cases.. want too much money.. no leadership... cant bulk up.... :lol:
Were a crap side!!!!
We have only won one premiership since the AFL was conceived.. since the AFL was conceived we have been an ok club... nothing like the powerhouse VFL club we were!!!... were broke!!!.. were unnatractive...

But yes some of you talk about pride and tradition and all that stuff.
In 20 years time when the AFL scrub the VFL premierships (its too early to do that just now) and its Brisbane with 4 .. West Coast with 3 Stkilda with say one.. etc etc etc and Carlton with one...
.............. theyre going to make a movie... 'Once were Warriors'
Please dont make the mistake of thinking cos once upon a time we were a powerhouse and we used to win premierships that we will automatically have free passage to them because were proud...

.. It wont happen!!!!!

Unless you cut your ties to your past and start again.., planning on the next 100 years and not the 100 that have past..were a basketcase AFL side who used to be a great VFL side.

Times have changed!!!
Get used to it!!!
Re program how you think about whats going on...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:41 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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You make a fair point, Jarusa. But I don't see the No.1 pick as the easy way out, more just another piece in a the puzzle (and right now, I see a 3,000 piece jigsaw puzzle tipped onto the floor, and the picture's of a train in a tunnel. At night)

I do want us to be smarter than every other club, in every way possible. I want every possible advantage we can manufacture.

And if one of those is Marc Murphy, then I'll take it. Sure, we then have to develop him (and all our other kids) better than anyone else can. But why not start with the very best raw materials?

Let's call it a strategic retreat, rather than a defeatist attitude. It's worked for armies for centuries.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:42 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Jarusa wrote:
We are all arguing essentially over quite small differences...

...Being blinded by the priority picks is like a drug, when do you tell yourself to stop.


That's it in a nutshell Jarusa. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:47 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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I don't know when we stop, but I know when I'll know when we've got sufficient young talent on our list:

and that's when we're not pinning our KPP and ruck hopes on two Irish boys who've barely played the game of AFL football.

No disrespect to either of the O'hAilpins. I think they're awesome athletes and show every sign of making it. But guys like this are the cream on the cake.

We have recruited so little genuine talent over the years that we're pinning our hopes on Irish hurlers.

Despite it making a nice metaphor, I don't think we're in any danger of overdosing on the drug that is top junior AFL talent, just yet.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:52 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Some great thoughts there Camel. Losing to win is a bitter pill to swallow no doubt. But as I said a couple of months back the DILEMMA that we Carlton supporters face is:

A battle between the HEAD and the HEART.

Your post clearly illustrates this dilemma.

Those in the Pro-Spoon Camp aren't anti-Carlton (not suggesting you implied this BTW)...it's just that for most of us in the "Black Plague" bandwagon:

The HEAD has already won the battle over the HEART

...ultimately we want to see the Blues win... and we see our way as the quickest, most efficient way to go about achieving this - in a meaningful and sustained way...we're not claiming it is the ONLY way, only that it is the BEST way.

Personally, for me there is an additional reason why I want us to bottom out. And for that I'll just include a post I made in TBV last year:

http://www.theblueview.org/phpboard/vie ... tom#157305


bluebernz wrote:
The thing that really gets me is that we finished with less than 5 and a half wins for EACH of the past 2 years and instead of reaping the benefits at the draft,as other teams have enjoyed, all we have to show for it is one PP (Walker) and one PSD pick (Stevens). How F%$Ked is that!!! :x :evil: And this after having the worst 2 years in our history!!!- FFS, that hurts like you wouldn't believe... the AFL really F#$*d us and kicked us while we were down. :x :evil: :x :evil:

At the moment we are at best a side rated 10-15. I'm trying to look at this realistically--> We have won four games BUT:
1) We played Geelong when they had a whole heap of senior players out.
2) Same goes for Collingwood. And even with a depleted side they almost beat us.
3) We were lucky to beat Adelaide- let's not kid ourselves, they lost this game through bad kicking more than anything and should have had us on toast by quarter time.

That leaves the WC game as our one "true" victory IMHO... and the Weagles haven't exactly set the world on fire when playing in Melbourne.

I'm worried that we are getting a false sense of security about our list just because we have won four games so far (3 of which were "lucky") and are likely to win the next two (against clubs that are going worse than we are). Don't get me wrong, I love it when we win... which supporter doesn't? But where I agree with Synbad is that we need to look at it longer term instead of short term. There are a lot of holes in our list. The most obvious are a Ruckman, a quick skilled midfielder, a KPP backman (and Fwd?), and perhaps an In-and-under (mind you I have only mentioned the most obvious, glaring deficiencies in our side).

Now, how will we improve the list with all these holes in our structure:

Option 1) we can finish anywhere between say 8-14 with more than 5 and a half wins:- if we do this then we can the draft young kids and they will take time to develop, a ruckman will take even longer. Are people willing to wait that long? Under this scenario, we are more unlikely to get an experienced player either.

Option 2) Finish in the bottom two. In which case, we are more likely to pick up a young gun that is more likely to have a quicker impact at Senior Level PLUS we are more likely to get access to a top experienced player via the PSD. BTW this is the ONLY way I believe we can get a good experienced player (if anyone can see an alternative, without trading a 1st rnd DP, I'd love to hear it!) as we don't have any players of any real currency apart from Lance... and we might not get a lot for him.

Having said all of the above though, it doesn't look like we'll end up with option 2 this year... and it hurts me to say this... but I wouldn't have minded if we were Option 2 this year... and the only reason I say this is because of the SHITE we are in!!... I'm not saying this because I don't love Carlton... I'm saying it because I DO love Carlton... I want my TEAM to be up there again and this is one of our best ways to get there!... this is the way the AFL has designed the SYSTEM!! :evil: ... hell, even if we just finish near-bottom for 1 year to make up for no draft picks in 2002, then I will take it!


My thoughts in the above quotes haven't changed since I made that post.

BTW, we will never ever be a St Kilda... not in a hundred years!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:53 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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At least we're all as one in wanting a 17th premiership as soon as possible.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:55 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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budzy wrote:
At least we're all as one in wanting a 17th premiership as soon as possible.


it wont be the 17th but the second....and 15 VFL flags....


Look into the future ..l.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:00 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Nice Johyn but there is an alternate reality.

take Melbourne - no please take... Melbourne decided they needed the best and in those farway days it was the thought that the best was gotten with the most money. So Melbourne got the money and went in search and found Big kicking Big bodied Jim Tilbruk(?) and paid him squillions (which unlike today most players didn't get) Diamond Jim he became and the melbourne faithful gathered, helkd their snowy white breathe and waited.

I remember a game of Diamond Jim's. Early game - i remeber a kick of his - shit it was a monster of a kick though it did end up six rows back on the wing and it was one of about 3 kicks he got.

If religion teaches a single thing its
BEWARE OF MESSIAHS BEARING FALSE FOOTBALLING ALMS! Especially the long kicking ones.

I might argue John that despite what you and Synbad say, Carlton did not win those flags because of cheque book mentalities - certinaly it as thought in 1970 that Collingwood had the far better/TALENTED side but they were not carlton.

In 1972 Richmond were thought to have the far better side - but they were not Carlton.

What carlton had was belief, a striving to succeed, and talent. yes, Talent always. I understand we need the talent but I also understand the hispotry Camelman is referring to, a history oif success not build upon money but upon culture - the culture that JE shattered because he believed it was only about talent - nothing else.

Walls was shocked by the attitude of JE and co after the 1987 GF and that junkiet trip shocked because wallsey grew up under the culture of carlton ol school - carlton pre JE - a hard playing but hard working and always eyes on the big picturte Carlton.

JE stole that.

I wonder have we got it back?

is Collo tanking do you think?

Are players allowing their careers to be shot for the greater good?

No.

yes we are so shit that two picks will help but come on, lets not dip so @#$%&! low in the barrel that we'll never get out. let's keep some semblance of the culture we built up.

otherwise Demitripdick and co really have won the battle for the soul of this game.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:03 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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I don't like arguing with you danny.

It's like arguing with that part of yourself that you know is the best part. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:05 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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hey praise has no place in any argument you prick!!!!!!!




:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:05 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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camelboy wrote:
Jarusa wrote:
We are all arguing essentially over quite small differences...

...Being blinded by the priority picks is like a drug, when do you tell yourself to stop.


That's it in a nutshell Jarusa. ;)


How bout we do it for 2 years to make up for the 2 years of Draft Penalties? 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:08 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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I'm just looking into my crystal ball 'bernz ... I'll get back to you. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:19 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Here's the way I look at it:

If the mess that we got into now was borne solely out of our own accord then I don't think I'd be in the Tanking bandwagon.... BUT... because of what transpired after Black Friday I just want compensation for what the AFL did to us... they set us back 2 years.... all I want is to get back to an even playing field again!

That's how I justify it to myself anyway.

Seriously though, I'm only talking a couple of years. After that no more tanking... EVER!.... No matter how bad we get!! TWO YEARS!... Surely that isn't enough to undo all the GOOD that has happened in our proud history???

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YARRAN!!





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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:25 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Before you advocate a 2nd year Bluebenz see how next season goes first i am only think last this year cause the year is a write off and if we get the divedends and get put back on track next year i will be happy. if we win the first 4 games next year i will be happy to go as far as we can hell i just hope we play hard next year i have had a year of jibes from many fellow other clubs to get back at. But i am a realist and this year is a write off and a half game finish ahhead of the Hawks not gonna make me feel better... so this year i want the best of the nest and i dont want us vulnrable to loosing what we have left in talent for nothing if the Hawks finish last.

This year will sort a lot of the list problems / Collo already stating big shake up am sure DP will restructure the list and i dont think he gonna go down the road of this year again...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:26 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Bluebernz wrote:
Seriously though, I'm only talking a couple of years. After that no more tanking... EVER!.... No matter how bad we get!! TWO YEARS!... Surely that isn't enough to undo all the GOOD that has happened in our proud history???


They sound like the words of a druggy to me. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:31 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Synbad wrote:
But yes some of you talk about pride and tradition and all that stuff.
In 20 years time when the AFL scrub the VFL premierships (its too early to do that just now) and its Brisbane with 4 .. West Coast with 3 Stkilda with say one.. etc etc etc and Carlton with one...
.............. theyre going to make a movie... 'Once were Warriors'


Synbad as long as they count 1982 and 1987 flags because for mine the VFL became the AFL as soon as South Melbourne went to Sydney. :wink: but definitely the 1987 flag because West Coast and Brisbane entered the competition that season as well. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:32 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Jarusa wrote:
Bluebernz wrote:
Seriously though, I'm only talking a couple of years. After that no more tanking... EVER!.... No matter how bad we get!! TWO YEARS!... Surely that isn't enough to undo all the GOOD that has happened in our proud history???


They sound like the words of a druggy to me. :lol:


:lol:

I said the same thing when I started up smoking.... and I'm still going strong today... anybody got the number for PeePee Anonymous? :P

All jokes aside, two years will do me fine...cross my heart!!! :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:44 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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hey Tyrant maybe it wasn't me after all - maybe its this black plague thingy? Or the blue plague thingy - gee its getting confusing huh? Am I absolved? Can I keep my little wax figurine - I find it helps me sleep at night but I must be careful of the hot water bottle or the sheets end up all sticky - that's my belief anyway!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:52 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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So that's your secret - the hot water bottle.

I've always been a big fan of the HWB. And do you know the best thing about them? They've yet to be commercialised. They still look like the cheap blue ribbed wobbly things I used to have as a kid.

I tell you danny, it's going to be a sad day when some shitful corporation decides to 'improve' the HWB on us.

(and you're still wrong on tanking. but right too)


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