Replace the word 'Cazzee' with 'CG' and Ryan would be making perfect sense.

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

Blah blah blah.....

Look the board appointed Pagan as coach for a further 3 years after this one... If you think Pagan should go along with a huge pay out.. for the betterment of the footy club the board is responsible.
Noone forced the board to give Pagan a contract.. they did it.!!!

No you didnt think it was hasty you said he was a MUST SIGN ... !!!

Now youve given yourself plenty of time to think about stuff..and youve started another ridiculous thread..

If Denis is not the right man for the job and the board after 2 and a half years of seeing his work and talking to him couldnt see it.. and RE SIGNED him for a further 3 years after this one.... they are FOOLS... so in effect youre calling all the board members FOOLS.!!!!

Over and above this after your solution... which sounds more like the 'FINAL SOLUTION' than a soloution swings into effect tyhe club would be more destitute.. it wouldnt have a ruckman...a heap of players(God knows where you will find a further 10 replacements plus getting rid of the duds under 25....plus a new coach... (Peter Rhode is available) a new footy department... and a new board all in tyhe one foul swoop.
Doing stuff in stages would be far more logical but then again you did say you "thought about this long hard and you were acting swiftly and decisively...."

Nice solution though.... comes right out of the USA military handbook on Vietnam circa 1968.....

Plus when you said "Bombshell".. i thought you were going to tell us Collo and Denis are gay lovers...

Thats not a bombshell .. its just another BlueMark intellectual analysis....
Pure genius!!!!!
But then again.. youre not advocating tanking just a 'holocaust'

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

You know Synbad, you like to to get stuck into people because you can. You haven't actually refuted anything I put up as an arguement for massive changes, half of which you have demanded for a number of years. In fact Synbad you do not refute anybodies arguement, you just scream, yell, hurl abuse etc. All it shows is the paupcity of your arguements, such as they are.

But please explain to me why the team appear on the field to not to be trying, to be the best that they can be. Tell me why they appear to flag the white flag whenever a opposition team get on top of us.

Is it indivivual players faults? Is it the teams fault? Is it the coaching? Or is it as I stated a shared responsibility?

Tell us Synbad, very interested.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Well I rekcon it's a shared responsibility. But I'll be buggered if I know how to fix it.

Mark, I agree with most of what you have had to say, however you have spared the one group who are ultimately responsible - the board. Should they remain after 3 years and we seem to have made little progress?

Actually Speedy, I believe the board has done a great job off field in the last three years, not withstanding my concerns over the $1 000 000 tax bill notwithstanding. Need a lot more info about what sort of advice they had been operating with and wheter or not it is just the tax office changing its mind as they do. If so the Board cannot be held responsible.

Re On field, the board appointed Dennis to do a job and the question is. Is he doing it well enough to continue? If he isn't and he is removed then the board will cop flack for extending Dennis's contract. If you make a bad decision, no matter how well intentioned then yes you should be held accountable. But is it enough for the board to be removed. No on balance it isn't.

Do I think Dennis will be axed. No he won't. Do I think he should be axed, given the current circumstance, no I do not. But if I wasn't encumbered with a contract then yes at seasons end I would.

Finally I really do hope that there is a massive turn around in the teams on field performance by seasons end (ie at least look as though they are trying) and certainly for next season. Because if there is not, then it could get very ugly.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

BM,your initial post virtually recommends a scorched earth approach and regarding the coaching group you added the following......
"
"The Coaching Staff; It is the coaching staffs responsibility to draw the maximum potential out of the playing group. This is clearly not happening in the majority of cases. The playing group as a whole is not playing with passion or with the level of on field commitment that I would expect from professional athletes. This is the second time in three years that this has happened. In the first case it was the playing group paid the price, as they should. But this time I believe the coaching staff should shoulder some of the responsibility as well. It is at the end of the day the Coaching Staffs responsibility to ensure the playing group performs to its ability at all times.
It is also a responsibility of the coaching staff to tailor a gameplan that maximises the strength of the playing group and I believe that there is some merit to the argument that the coaching this year has failed in this regard. If the coach wishes to implement a certain gameplan then it is his responsibility to ensure that the group plays to that plan. I would argue that this is also not occurring at the moment.




Further to that you became more forthright and added the following...


"In my opinion the entire coaching staff needs to be replaced. While I respect and admire Dennis Pagan, at the end of the day the responsibility lies at his feet and his staff."

Interestingly the further the debate went re your initial post,the more you seem to back away.Hence your recent post.....

"Do I think Dennis will be axed. No he won't. Do I think he should be axed, given the current circumstance, no I do not. But if I wasn't encumbered with a contract then yes at seasons end I would. "


A pretty ambiguous statement..."Do i think he should be axed,given the current circumstance,no i don't"!

What is it Mark,do you want him or not?

By the way a contract is irrelevant,they can be bought out!

BM the king of the intellectual analysis... NOT!!!!!

First youy said you thought about deep and hard.. then you would act.. then when you were told of your stupidity of a scortched earth policy... and your ignoring the boards accountabilty you shit yourself..

Now youre trying to make me look bad...

Sorry BM that your posts are foolish.....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Synbad, Given my initial post was about the football dept and not the board I cannot for the life figure out how you figured out I thought the board was incompetant. I have explained my position re the board. On balance they have done a good job. On reflection the decision to re-appoint Dennis may have been premature. A decision I supported. I suspect if Dennis was still uncontacted his position would be in jepoardy


7Dom, I stand by my initial statement that I believe the coaching dept has been bad this year. The only reason why if I was in charge at years end I would not exit Dennis, is because of his contract. Otherwise I would.

There will be a shake up at years end within the football dept.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

So if not for the contract - you would sack Pagan... and who would you replace him with? Gary Ayres? Frawley? Schwab?...

No particular person in mind.

However the replacement would undergo a rigorous examination of thier gameplan, thier player analysis, thier man management abilities, what they would do if things were not going well etc.

Reputation would count for little. I would want the best fit candiate for our situation.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Danni Minogue...?

I wouldn't even concern myself with the coach, get rid of all our senior leaders this year bar Stevens and let the kids lead themselves like they do anyway each week, supported by two senior players of the age of 27/28 like a Mal Michael from a successful club and someone else to show our young list what is required to be done to be successful then let our list develop over a five year period. Voss, Akermanis, Lappin all developed a winning culture after enduring many losing seasons in their younger years, years of getting beaten each week won't affect the character of young players if you get the right young players to your club. We Carlton supporters have to be patient and learn to stop demanding success like we always have, so we can rebuild a competitive list from the ground up. Most of us seem to get the most enjoyment out of the improvement of our younger players and the most sensible thing is to accept this as our parlance for the near future.

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Blue is the colour, Blue is our colourful conversation, football is the game, talking carlton is our aim, we're all together, we're all together, winning is our aim, arguing is a pain, let's debate for gain. .. .!

And most probably your winner would be one D.Pagan, so you'd have to recontract him + pay out his earlier contract.

C'mon BlueMark, nice 'niceties' and wish list but I think you just have to accept that our lower quality playing list won't get us anywhere. Sure they're dropping their heads but leadership on the field has to take the blame. I thought they lifted when Kouta played onball against Freo.

What if your new coach after hypothetically sacking Pagan still got us nowehere? We'd be like Hawthown now, giving a young Coach with a few ideas a few early draft picks but knowing full well you've got a great excuse to sack him in 2 years time.

The Club has done the right thing - at least if Pagan goes nowhere in a couple of years we'll still have the young list but we won't have had an interim coach of young players.

It will take time. Just has to. You can't overcome years of draft neglect in 2 or 3 years. It's just not done that way. I'd just keep on barracking, fall asleep with the Wizzer in mind and look forward to new recruits sprucing them up.

Scorched Earth would have got us nowhere IMHO.

Has anybody mentioned Marc Murphy on these boards yet?

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When Dick became President, it was as if everyone at Carlton came out of the hailstorm and into the sunshine - Stephen Kernahan

YARRAN!!





.

BM - that is exactly the "corporate speak" Hawthorn gave when they f*cked up their coach search - and did end up with a rookie instead of Plough. I don't see Hawthorn do better then us -ATM - in spite of having a better list then us and had much better draft picks last year then us.

Actually I am disappointed that you of all people have jumped on the blame the coach bandwagon.
Today’s list management is different from 10 - 20 years ago with the introduction of the draft and cap. The 2 key elements for the development of a list into a successful unit are a) the draft and b) management of the salary cap. Now let us have a look at Carlton: Firstly Pagan inherited a crap old list due to the inability of recruiting young players in the late 90’s early this decade. Secondly he inherited a bunch of mad contracts that put us at or over the cap in our wooden spoon season and thereafter. Then Pagan had to work with being excluded for 2 years from the draft – which of course where top draft picks and with a salary cap issue that made it very difficult to attract out of contract players until the end of this year (except Stevens). I wonder if we had had more money to throw around at the end of last year – would we have got Trent Knobel?

So taking all this into account it is far to easy to go after Pagan at this point in time. I do however encourage a review of the department (especially assistant coaches etc.) –the “white flagâ€

Gotta agree with you Mikkey on all points. I think you're spot on.

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

Mikkey I think you have misread my original post. My issue is the manner in which the team is playing. The fact that the on-field effort by the players is poor. The fact that they give up as soon as pressure is applied. That is not lack of talent, that is lack of mental strenght and a bad dose of the "I do not give a shit". I wouldn't care if we were being beaten every week but I could see that the team as a whole is trying, working hard etc. But we aren't. We have been getting thrashed week in week out and it would not appear that the team gives a toss. A good example was Fev cracking jokes in the week after he played his absolute shocker. Was he sorry he played in the manner he did? Publicy he wasn't.

Nor did I spare the playing group, no one has noted that I would can players I have been defending this year. I wonder is it O.K to crititise the players but not the coach as well? The question can be asked. Are we applying a double standard? I hope not.

In my view the 'blame' for the on field effort lies with both the players and the coach. They should take equal responsibility.

I am loath to use Eddie McQuire as an example but his 'laying down the law' at Collingwood this week is in response to exactly the same attitude in the playing group as being currenetly evidenced by our group. Collo has done the same thing at Carlton but in a slightly more subtle way by making it clear that there will be a complete reveiw of the football dept. It was this review that prompted me to reassess my position on both the playing group and coaching staff.

Do I hope the on field attitude changes. Absoloutly, it is embrassing to go and watch the team play, in the manner it currently is.

_________________
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

BM - that is exactly the "corporate speak" Hawthorn gave when they f*cked up their coach search - and did end up with a rookie instead of Plough. I don't see Hawthorn do better then us -ATM - in spite of having a better list then us and had much better draft picks last year then us.

Actually I am disappointed that you of all people have jumped on the blame the coach bandwagon.
Today’s list management is different from 10 - 20 years ago with the introduction of the draft and cap. The 2 key elements for the development of a list into a successful unit are a) the draft and b) management of the salary cap. Now let us have a look at Carlton: Firstly Pagan inherited a crap old list due to the inability of recruiting young players in the late 90’s early this decade. Secondly he inherited a bunch of mad contracts that put us at or over the cap in our wooden spoon season and thereafter. Then Pagan had to work with being excluded for 2 years from the draft – which of course where top draft picks and with a salary cap issue that made it very difficult to attract out of contract players until the end of this year (except Stevens). I wonder if we had had more money to throw around at the end of last year – would we have got Trent Knobel?

So taking all this into account it is far to easy to go after Pagan at this point in time. I do however encourage a review of the department (especially assistant coaches etc.) –the “white flagâ€

You are not taking into acount the restrictions I mentioned for trades and drafting. We were not only excluded from draft picks - we were also not allowed to trade us to hgher draft picks! Check the facts. And your trading / non-draft recruiting point is totally screwed when you have no room in the salary cap due to the stupid long-term backloaded contratcs. But hey, let not these facts stand in the way of a good argument..

It seems to me that Pagan is cracking down on the senior non-performing players - they in turn have lost motivation. Now this is giving us pain right now as they are "pulling down" the younger players, but in the longer term we wil be better for it.

OTOH none of us really know exactly what goes on in the inner workings of the club / playing group. My only "inside" word comes from my sister in law who knows somebody who works in a support role for the football department. The person told her that the reason for the "downfall" in morale of several palyers and non-performance has been caused by that they know they are on their last chance and have started to play "survival" football instead of team football. It is quite well known that this is deadly in modern football. I think we see a major improvement once we are through the nexct period of sorting the players out. Once the dust has lifted I expect to see this improving a lot.