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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:13 am 
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Ken Hunter

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BTW Synbad, thanks for not mentioning Campo once in this whole thread.... :)

edit: I didn't read your entire post too carefully did I :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:28 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Synbad wrote:
Ok just so you people understand.....

Denis is from North where they have had to fight for everything including their own existence.
His record speaks for itself.. under 19s reserves VFA with Yarraville and North.
He comes to Carlton with the understanding he gets Wells Goddard a second rounder a third rounder and a player through the PSD...
History tells us he didnt... and he didnt get a first and second rounder in his next year either...
Now being from a blue collar football background (mostly with North where everything was hard fought for and a culture of hard work and mateship he comes to Carlton)

Carlton is a club all about the excess of the greedy 80s. Players have been spoilt , overpaid , treated with kit gloves... but the club is on a decline.

Denis is shocked with the club that he thought was in better shape than it was. No gym, undersized players who are being paid overpaid wages...he decides to whip the place into shape. Cracking the whip he gets players who live in Elliot/Parkins la la land off side...
Theyre not used to this drill sergeant stuff.. after all Parkin had empowered them and Elliott had promised them riches.They never had to do weights before why do them now???
McKernan had told the players all about Pagan and when it was announced that Pagan was coming McKernan felt sick in the guts. He let the others know too.
Collo had asked for a paycut from the players and when he asked the top 8 players to drive over to his office at the Dome Corey knew what it was about. He had experienced something similar at North. On the drive over he was busy telling the others that this meeting (unknown at the time was not going to be much fun) .. a few minutes with Collo and the players knew that it was not much fun. They have been asked to take a pay cut to something more realistic and they were not too happy about it.
Not taking a pay cut would have meant the club was up for salary cap breaches again so most of the players took a pay deferal.
As the year went on and Pagan eager to change the culture began the exercise of stripping down all the fat the players were chewing he got more and more off side with the fat cat players who resented what was going on .... who is this guy and what reason does he have to rock our world???
This metality is still the problem today with a handfull of players .
There is a transition of culture and some players hate that their nest egg is no longer that and that the club is shedding off its excess.

When theyre more or less gone and their little support system thats left (contracts) have been torn down i have no doubt that Denis (The master shin boner) will bring a culture to the club more befitting of where we are today rather than where the club was in the eighties.
I know some board members have lost their nerve.. (BM gets his ideas from one or two).. the ones that count are in support of Denis and the hard job at hand.
In my opinion we should support the transition before it spoils the kids..rather than the easy knee jerk reaction that the Richmonds and the Aints have used sacking coach after coach because the players ran the show...
Its a long road ahead and players like Walker and Waite will understand the Denis road might be tougher but its more rewarding than the road of Campo and Lappin...


Sorry you were up way to late for me when you posted this. :wink:

Bravo vre, well said. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:38 am 
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Serge Silvagni
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Synbad wrote:
Ponkstar wrote:
Time to come clean Synbad.

You're really Denis Pagan's son aren't you?? :P


Ill support dad... i mean anyone that wants to do whatever it takes to turn this culture of "me" thats being dragging down the club around...


I know Ryan Pagan and Synbad, you are certainly not him. However, I agree with what you are saying regarding the culture.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:05 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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79Vintage wrote:
C'mon I'm only tryng to maintain a sense of humour in trying times.


79V...ahall we just call you Sybil!?!

Synbad, I could be wrong, BUT I think Ballistic Blues was saying that training was cancelled a few times at North, but you'ld find PAgan at Training (ie the sessions happened even though they were officially cancelled). SAme thingh happened yesterday.

BTW...I like the summary...can't wait for Pagan's biography....are you ghost writing Syndad?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:56 am 
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Harry Vallence
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I agree with Synbad's post too. There's player empowerment, and then there's fat cats who cut corners and are allowed to get away with it.

If Pagan has to rule with an iron fist, so be it. Our older players have been loyal servants of the club but have been unable to shoulder the burden of leadership. They have all been great players in their day, but seem to be more concerned with their own form rather than doing the team things. And besides, they won't be around any more once we start climbing back up the ladder.

We all have varying views on Pagan and he's coaching abilities. I think his matchday coaching leaves a little to be desired. However, I believe that his strength is in building strong and committed teams. The group he coached at North, he first started coaching at under-19 level and some of them he coached right through to the end of their careers.

I think having a group of young kids that develop together under Pagan will be the best way to make our club great again. He doesn't have the luxury of having coached them from the age of 16, but I still think youth is the way to go.

Also if you look at his recruiting from last year, there is a nice little pattern emerging. Becker, Betts and Smith where all drafted from the Calder Cannons (who won the premiership) and, Hartlett and Russell were both from West Adelaide. Whether it's by design or coincidence, I think it is a smart move to draft kids that have played together and know eachother's game. Following on from that you've got them all playing for the Bullants and WINNING. So, we've got a group that play together and are being developed in the Pagan mould. The future is bright.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:08 pm 
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John Nicholls

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You really can't criticise Denis too much when he has been given access to everything.
He has had hurdles in front of him since day one.

Once guys like Campo, Kouta etc etc are gone, he will be able to mould this Carlton unit how he sees fit.

And I can't wait for the day when he starts.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:20 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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The old culture was shocking wasn't it playing in finals, winning flags. I'm so glad the culture at the club at the moment has changed for the better.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:27 pm 
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John Nicholls

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TheGame wrote:
The old culture was shocking wasn't it playing in finals, winning flags. I'm so glad the culture at the club at the moment has changed for the better.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

We are talking about the culture of the players.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:29 pm 
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Rod McGregor

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:42 pm
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Location: Here
Synbad wrote:
Ok just so you people understand.....

Denis is from North where they have had to fight for everything including their own existence.
His record speaks for itself.. under 19s reserves VFA with Yarraville and North.
He comes to Carlton with the understanding he gets Wells Goddard a second rounder a third rounder and a player through the PSD...
History tells us he didnt... and he didnt get a first and second rounder in his next year either...
Now being from a blue collar football background (mostly with North where everything was hard fought for and a culture of hard work and mateship he comes to Carlton)

Carlton is a club all about the excess of the greedy 80s. Players have been spoilt , overpaid , treated with kit gloves... but the club is on a decline.

Denis is shocked with the club that he thought was in better shape than it was. No gym, undersized players who are being paid overpaid wages...he decides to whip the place into shape. Cracking the whip he gets players who live in Elliot/Parkins la la land off side...
Theyre not used to this drill sergeant stuff.. after all Parkin had empowered them and Elliott had promised them riches.They never had to do weights before why do them now???
McKernan had told the players all about Pagan and when it was announced that Pagan was coming McKernan felt sick in the guts. He let the others know too.
Collo had asked for a paycut from the players and when he asked the top 8 players to drive over to his office at the Dome Corey knew what it was about. He had experienced something similar at North. On the drive over he was busy telling the others that this meeting (unknown at the time was not going to be much fun) .. a few minutes with Collo and the players knew that it was not much fun. They have been asked to take a pay cut to something more realistic and they were not too happy about it.
Not taking a pay cut would have meant the club was up for salary cap breaches again so most of the players took a pay deferal.
As the year went on and Pagan eager to change the culture began the exercise of stripping down all the fat the players were chewing he got more and more off side with the fat cat players who resented what was going on .... who is this guy and what reason does he have to rock our world???
This metality is still the problem today with a handfull of players .
There is a transition of culture and some players hate that their nest egg is no longer that and that the club is shedding off its excess.

When theyre more or less gone and their little support system thats left (contracts) have been torn down i have no doubt that Denis (The master shin boner) will bring a culture to the club more befitting of where we are today rather than where the club was in the eighties.
I know some board members have lost their nerve.. (BM gets his ideas from one or two).. the ones that count are in support of Denis and the hard job at hand.
In my opinion we should support the transition before it spoils the kids..rather than the easy knee jerk reaction that the Richmonds and the Aints have used sacking coach after coach because the players ran the show...
Its a long road ahead and players like Walker and Waite will understand the Denis road might be tougher but its more rewarding than the road of Campo and Lappin...

I've got nothing to add, just wanted to contribute another post using Synbad's post.......have we got enough of these now?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:33 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Brettie wrote
Quote:
I've got nothing to add, just wanted to contribute another post using Synbad's post.......have we got enough of these now?


:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:05 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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phoenix johnson wrote:
TheGame wrote:
The old culture was shocking wasn't it playing in finals, winning flags. I'm so glad the culture at the club at the moment has changed for the better.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

We are talking about the culture of the players.


A culture that lead to winning :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:07 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Someone had better check Synbads blood pressure, think he is on the verge of a stroke.

As yet someone is yet to explain to me why the following has occurred over the season

Skill Level- Down and getting worse
Decision Making- Getting worse
Endevour- Almost non existant
Fitness- Down, we slowing down to walk after half time

Blaming the above on one or two players or culture is simplistic at best.

BTW Thanks for letting me know about board members losing thier 'nerve' its been a while since I have chatted to them. My thoughts about Dennis are mine alone.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:42 pm 
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St Kilda Supporter

Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 275
Dodo27 wrote:
Going through the pain and misery of watching one of our worst seasons ever, I came Forward tonight and Asked Terry Wallace on White Line Fever, a very honest Question about our Situation.

I Would like to ask you the same Question to you guys and get your input on the matter.


Do you honestly think that the playing Group At Carlton , especially the Senior Players, have Stoped playing for Denis the Coach or rathar can no longer have the desire to play under Denis?? Body Language, commitment, attitude all been Questionable this year


Terry Wallace's view was that he strongly beleieved Denis has nothing to do with our Fall, and that last year's 10 wins came as a Fluke and pure luck, nothing else, and that he only expects Carlton to get up to finals footy within 5-6 years .....

What do you think??


Yea'


I heard your question. At the time I thought. :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:50 pm 
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St Kilda Supporter

Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 275
Synbad wrote:
In my opinion we should support the transition before it spoils the kids..rather than the easy knee jerk reaction that the Richmonds and the Aints have used sacking coach after coach because the players ran the show...


you got the greedy part right.

I was staggered to learn that Campo was on $700,000 per year and Whitnall half a million.

But why bring the Saints into the thread, this is not about them. It's crap anyway and you should not believe all you read in the newspapers.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:13 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Posts: 10631
TruBlueBrad wrote:
phoenix johnson wrote:
TheGame wrote:
The old culture was shocking wasn't it playing in finals, winning flags. I'm so glad the culture at the club at the moment has changed for the better.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

We are talking about the culture of the players.


A culture that lead to winning :D


:P :P :P


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:58 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Blue Mark i think i give you way too much credit.
You really should be in the new movie along with Surrey... all you need is Moe and youre the new 3 stooges.

Are you wearing some kind of clear glasses to look intelligent while you typed that???

:lol:



sheeeeeeeeeesh....... numero duo stupedo with numero uno being Surrey...

I think ive answered whats wrong time and time again... but obviously youre completely incapable of comprehension.

Time and time again over YEARS you continue to dumbfound me with how many times you attempt to challenge me and land on your face.

I have faith in Denis cos he has runs on the board... and we have a shit list and no leaders so it will take time to turn this mess around.

I have faith in Collo to turn the ship off the ground around because these two people have the runs on the board and theyre not stupid. They have seen it all before .

Do you think Denis is worrying about tactics to win games in this predicament????? :lol:

We have more pressing issues to address before we begin to make everyone feel good about themselves by setting out game plans and tactics,
Unfortunately due to some leadership players not taking the bit between the teeth some of the kids are suffering... but i can assure you as long as the club and supporters dont lose their nerve the kids and the club will re structure and come out smelling like roses on and off the field...

This stupidity about winning games.. (when we dont have the right tone ) and Denis role must stop.
Were not going to win too many more games next year either... BECAUSE we are devoid of talent... !!!!!!!!!
Next year we will add to the youth we already have and will draft this year and slowly we will build towards SUSTAINED success.
Winning six this year because the players were pampered does not help the club....

As for winning cultures.. you get that with players that are winners.. We dont have them at the moment.. well not enough so just because i want to root Elle McPhuckenpherson doesnt mean it is going to happen you drongos..!!!! :lol: :roll: :lol:

How bloody stupid are some of you.. led by Captain Blue Mark (Mr always wrong)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:49 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Synbad wrote:
I have faith in Collo to turn the ship off the ground around


Love the mixed metaphor, Syn. One of your best... :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:53 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Kaptain Kouta wrote:
Synbad wrote:
I have faith in Collo to turn the ship off the ground around


Love the mixed metaphor, Syn. One of your best... :wink:




sheesh... even i dont understand that sentence and i wrote it....

Well this ship needs to be turned off the ground and around ...... :lol: :P

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:03 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 21626
Location: North of the border
Synbad wrote:
Ok just so you people understand.....

Denis is from North where they have had to fight for everything including their own existence.
His record speaks for itself.. under 19s reserves VFA with Yarraville and North.
He comes to Carlton with the understanding he gets Wells Goddard a second rounder a third rounder and a player through the PSD...
History tells us he didnt... and he didnt get a first and second rounder in his next year either...
Now being from a blue collar football background (mostly with North where everything was hard fought for and a culture of hard work and mateship he comes to Carlton)

Carlton is a club all about the excess of the greedy 80s. Players have been spoilt , overpaid , treated with kit gloves... but the club is on a decline.

Denis is shocked with the club that he thought was in better shape than it was. No gym, undersized players who are being paid overpaid wages...he decides to whip the place into shape. Cracking the whip he gets players who live in Elliot/Parkins la la land off side...
Theyre not used to this drill sergeant stuff.. after all Parkin had empowered them and Elliott had promised them riches.They never had to do weights before why do them now???
McKernan had told the players all about Pagan and when it was announced that Pagan was coming McKernan felt sick in the guts. He let the others know too.
Collo had asked for a paycut from the players and when he asked the top 8 players to drive over to his office at the Dome Corey knew what it was about. He had experienced something similar at North. On the drive over he was busy telling the others that this meeting (unknown at the time was not going to be much fun) .. a few minutes with Collo and the players knew that it was not much fun. They have been asked to take a pay cut to something more realistic and they were not too happy about it.
Not taking a pay cut would have meant the club was up for salary cap breaches again so most of the players took a pay deferal.
As the year went on and Pagan eager to change the culture began the exercise of stripping down all the fat the players were chewing he got more and more off side with the fat cat players who resented what was going on .... who is this guy and what reason does he have to rock our world???
This metality is still the problem today with a handfull of players .
There is a transition of culture and some players hate that their nest egg is no longer that and that the club is shedding off its excess.

When theyre more or less gone and their little support system thats left (contracts) have been torn down i have no doubt that Denis (The master shin boner) will bring a culture to the club more befitting of where we are today rather than where the club was in the eighties.
I know some board members have lost their nerve.. (BM gets his ideas from one or two).. the ones that count are in support of Denis and the hard job at hand.
In my opinion we should support the transition before it spoils the kids..rather than the easy knee jerk reaction that the Richmonds and the Aints have used sacking coach after coach because the players ran the show...
Its a long road ahead and players like Walker and Waite will understand the Denis road might be tougher but its more rewarding than the road of Campo and Lappin...


Synbad next time you put a post like this up can you add some back ground music with it- Maybe something from Raiders of the lost Ark.
You must be very pleased with this post synbad. As i think you have gone past the point where you actually believe some of this dribble that you write. Tyrant put a post up early this year saying we could learn from Collingwood. This one takes the cake . Carlton are now going to adopt that good old Shinboner spirit they have down at North. That spirit that has brought them a whopping 4 flags. two of which they got when they employed our coach and our tactics in the 70 's. Maybe this is why we have Libba as an assistant coach so he can bring some of the doggies culture to our club. Maybe we should go get Stewie Loewe or someone from the saints to bring a little bit of their culture as well.
As for Ian (turfy) Collins righting the wrongs of the past administration he should be come a politician this is standard practice when a new party is elected ( Hell we didn't know it was that bad all those promises we made will be put on hold until we sought out this mess) Heard that before have we. Look at the sponsor that are jumping over themselves to be affiliated with Carlton . Look at all the big name players coming off contract just busting their gut to get over to Carlton and that new shinboner spirit we have developed. Hell before you know it we will be out there shaking the cans to keep us afloat. Like they do down at the shinboners and the doggies.
Now tell me something synbad why would a club give up its greatest advantage over all sides and that its home ground. I know to attract 16000 at the G or was it tell help the AFL pay off their debt on the Ice rink. Well hell if it good enough for the shinboners and the doggies well we should do the same as this is what we aspire to be.
Now lets look at this weights program that Denis has introduced - Tackling has improved - No - We are busting open packs - No We are intimidating the opposition - No . Maybe that time spent in the Gym might be best spent on learning how to hit a target on the feild.
Corey the poor old sole the man who single handed took us apart in 1999 the man who could have been a Pro Golfer the man who had more talent and more brains to know what sought of person Pagan was saw the light and left.
You see Synbad your constant dribble that you write on here about it all being the fault of two players is starting to wear thin. You synbad I think you actually believe this and are blinded by the realty that we have become. When I see a Carlton supporter advocating that we adopt a shiboner spirit you automatically know this poor sole has lost the plot.
There used to be lots of corner stores with that hard working shinboner spirit but now there all gone - replaced by the larger shopping complex We used to be a shopping complex - we are now becomming the corner store. Synbad you keep pushing the Pagan and Collo duo and you will push the once might of the AFL into oblivion
Carlton won flags because we were arogant - We won flags because we used the sytem to the limit. We won flags because we didnt have this loser mentalty of the Good Aussie Battler .

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:28 am 
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Craig Bradley
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Some are happy to see the team perform pathically on-field and lose games, because then they can get all excited about a priority pick or two.

Of course they feel all aggrieved when people start asking difficult questions about the performance.

If the team was having a crack on field I wouldn't be so annoyed but going to watch the crap that is being delivered up at the moment is insulting to say the least. And I hold both the players and the coaching staff equally responsible.

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