your way Prez but hey poetic licence and all that

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

its cool brother - just wanting to know if i was saying it wrong for the last 28 years

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

About the only part of that article I took half-seriously was the piccy of Houlihan and the capition saying he'd look good in Red and White. Ryan O'Keefe would look good in navy blue, Jim.

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Cer 'ch 'n alluog Blues

We are a rabble that has no pride, and some see this as a good thing!

Have always said I don't mind losing so long as we go down fighting. At the moment we are just going down.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

The problem is Mark pride can also stuff everything up -If we make decisions to preserve our pride rather than a course of action that will best help the club then we are buggered! At the moment most people seem to be more concerned with the pride of the club than the reality of the situation.

This does not mean I advocate tanking - I do not.

But it does mean we must at all times be realistic and must be poatient, given our need to rebuild, that it will take time for bodies and minds to mature.

People ar ebagging Pagan but really we will not be in a any position to judge him until at least the end of next year (and probably in reality the year after).

This does not mean I think Pagan does everything right -0 he clearly doesn't. But he and the board and the match committee are the only ones privy to their planning and at this point their planning would be long term, not short term so to see if it will work we need to give it time.

Too many people are wanting a quick fix, some evebn advocating a return to JE days but when this all started we all said it would take 5 years minimum. Well its not 5 years yet so lets be patient. lets see if the plan works.

If not and the chorus becomes a scream then we'll be in the rebuilding phase for ten years minimum - and truly will be a rabble. It's not the loss of Murphy that would set us back generationally, it's our own rabid desire to drag down a scapegoat or two.

Boe players or coach or board!

You of all people Mark should nbow we need to embrace the present (and our present 'rabbleness') if we are ever to set things straight.

If Pagan perfect - no! In fact at times he absolutely shits me.

Is he the right man for the job - do not know but suspect yes.

Do we need to give him time until we begin a witch hunt - definitely otherwise I fear we will shoot ourselves in the foot so badly we may permanently cripple ourseleves.

As I keep saying to people - Fitzroy was once the proudest club running around - it took a long time to kill her, but kill her they did.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

The only reason Jim Main wants Sydney to take-over Carlton is that is the only way Sydney will ever have sustained success....

and the other clubs say they wouldn't miss us, but they are just frightened by how good we are going to be in a few years time.

So there.

Danny I am talking about pride in indiviual performances and have been for at least 12 months. When a player runs onto the field and trys his hardest at all times. This is something we are not doing at the moment.

I will never crititise a player who might not be up to it, but works his butt off, but I will have a go at a player who is clearly not trying.

I know we do not have adequate talent, but I expect every player that runs out on the field to work as hard as they can. If we are trying and finsih last, then so be it. But if we finish last because of lack of effort then that is unacceptable.

I know it will take time to rebuild our club, but I expect ourselves to conduct ourselves with dignity while we are doing it, something we are clearly not doing. Quite frankly it is embrassing.

And I want a coach that can get that 'pride in performance' out of the players. If Dennis can not do so, then we might need to find someone who can.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

The funny thing is - we're absolute crap yet can still win Grand Finals.....sure, it was only the Wizzer Cup, but a G.F. nevertheless!!!

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Football is life: there is nothing else

And if they don't and they don't and they don't Mark? How ,many coaches?

Campo should not need a coach for him to take pride. Nor should Kouta.

If you are talking about the kids show me a kid who isn't taking pride. Carrots? Walker? Simmo?

if its the second teir players from other cliubs could it be that that is why they were let go, that they do not take pride, no matter the coach?

I think mark you have grown impatient with the club - and thats pride.

We are not good at the moment. Accept that and the rest will follow.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Saints call us a rabble and we are still more successfull than them in the 21st century

Record Since Round 1 of 2000:

Carlton: Saints

Played: 132 : 130
Won: 51 : 49
Lost: 80 : 79
Draw: 1 : 2
Points: 206 : 200

Might not last for long, but what a remarkable stat.

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

Pride landed us in the trouble we are in at the moment.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

A failed drunken businessman who had lost sight of reality got us into this trouble. Pissweak committeemen who turned a blind eye for so long didn't help either.

Like I said, pride got us into trouble in the first place.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

PJ we are playing without pride and that is the problem.

Danny, I heard Dennis today at his press conference saying that there was a positive spirit around the place and that the players were trying. If we believe the public utterences of the coach, then there is not a problem. However observation suggests that there is clearly a problem.

If Dennis does not believe that there is a problem, then I believe that the 'problem has to lie with Dennis because what is happening on the field is unacceptable. If Dennis is happy with the teams performance, then again that is unacceptable. Personally I believe that Dennis's spin re 'positive' vibe is just that 'spin' If Dennis is not seriously worried about the teams performance and is not working hard to address, then he deserves to go. Something is not right and to lay it all at the players feet is being dishonest in my veiw. The coach has to wear his share of the blame.

I believe that if I just advocated that only the senior players go, then some on here would not have a problem, but because I have also questioned a 'sacred cow' then it is open season.

In short Danny, I want a 'hungry' coach and a 'hungry' team and at the moement I do not see either.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Perhaps he's not letting the media hear what they want to hear?

Imagine if he said..."yeah, most of the players think I'm a prick and they are really all lost at sea with my coaching tactics"..the media would have a field day in the paper with more negative press.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

Take a look at denis's face after the hawthorn game - says it all. the fury there will take a long time to clear but he is patient and he sees the problem - its just Mark not all problems can be fixed with a snap of the fingers.

I think Denis is eager for certain conmtracts to be set up right, some money to be freed and some space to be opened up plus more kids brought in, plus some development of the kids here already.

2 years ago Sticks told me face to face that people wouldn;t belive how close to the cap we were - two years ago - how many games did we win. This glame is stuck because it cannot maneavour - the draft demands either a great list or manauvourability. We have had neither for two years.

The week by week stuff is glue and paste, its coming apart at the seams because underneath it is still rotten.

Thats what we need to clean up. Thats what will happen at the end of this year.

then we add to the kids some more talent.

We develop the talent.

We watch Denis coach the talent.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Actually I would love it if he came out with some 'truth' rather than cliches. Might stir the lads up a bit.

Danny whats a 'glame?' I hope its not olde English.

I realise better than most that the problems can not be fixed with a 'snap' of the fingers. But I am not seeing a lot of movement either. As a group the team has gone backwards at an awful rate, our younger group really has not progressed over the last two years, particularly when compared to other teams. Our second tier has failed to produced much more than a yelp. But of course I am rehashing old ground here.

On reflection I would like to see the team play with 'anger' this week rather than the despair of the past few weeks. A bit of passion, a bit of fire etc. And I would love to see some from the coach as well.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

'anger' ah yes the line in the sand stuff of hawthorn.

I think Carrots has developed. Livo. Walker too. And Simmo. But Sporn, Wiggins have gone off though I thought Sporn's game last week was solid. problem with Spon and Wiggins is that they are periphal players at best. T-Bird continues to develop. Bentick , well it will be interestig to see him this weekend - I fear his lack of pace I must admit.

Who particularly has disappointed you Mark?

I would also like to see some fire in the bellies but I think it must be hard for the second teirs seeing their careers ending and the veterans who might be facing a future of playing for very little.

Buckley (yeah him) said an interesting thing in his interview this week. When asked if he believes he can still play in a premiership he said 'Yes, if I didn't I'd give it away' (or something like that). Kouta, Lappin, Campo? Do they believe they will see a flag? I see no evidence of it this year. If so would they give it away?

Should they?

Not everyone can be a Bobby Skilton.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

The only two I think have moved forward are Waite and Carrazzo.

Walker, Thornton and Sporn have worked hard but stayed much the same.

The rest backwards Livo and Fev included.

Fish has been injured but I have been impressed by his return.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Fev backwards from what? From last year under Denis. Livo backwards from what? His first (playing) year? Come on Mark. fev was gone when denis arrived, now he is our key forward. Livo is slowly developing and moving forward.

Are we comparing Denis to Denis (o4 to 05)? Is that what this is about? Do you feel denis this year is not the man to lead us, but last year he was? Do you think he has now forgotten/lost/grown tired of the demands of the job? Do you think he is just taking the money (a new contract sit back, feet up and bludge)?

Come on Mark. Denis last year needed to get some wins, needed to show what could be done and he did it.

I believe this year Denis has worked just as hard but has allowed players to show their desire or to save themselves form embarassment. I think this year he is ticking or crossing off. Might not have started off that way but after about 7 rounds thats what it became.

if, as I believe, we begin to show improvement next year (not a lot it will be the kids) will that mean Denis has refound the fire?

I think we need to give him two years (and stuff the results) befoire we judge denis pagan the man and coach. I think his record demands that.

Realistically, he will need to show improvement next year (football clubs being what they are).

if you have become a bayer for blood Mark, then what hope this club? Perhaps now we begin to understand Richmond's tragic 20 odd years. melbourne's demise. Collingwood's 25 years. Perhaps we are about to do 25 hard years of turmoil.

I hope not.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!