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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:01 am 
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Horrie Clover

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I really want the PP as it does make it much more exciting and gives us a little more room for error with our drafting - but i think the main thing is that we draft kids with all of our draft picks rather than trading them away - i think we should be taking at least 5 kids per year and always remember how late we picked up fev and fisher and tf be willing to take risks on kids after pick 70!!!

The more kids taken, the better chance of getting a diamond i say.

The days of trading picks for chambers etc or drafting bannister,mott and the like should basically be over imo. Lets breed our own blueboys and the more early picks, the better.

Now lets look forward to watchin livo on tredrea this week and tarrant next week and having a total of 20 goals kicked on him to lead us to the holy PP - we can then say that we didnt waste the no.4 pick in 2000!!! just kidding sort of....


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:16 am 
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Rod Ashman
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ThePrez wrote:
And yes - the Eagles are that good that if they had a quality full forward i reckon they could achieve what Brisbane did from 01-03 without too much concern from other teams.


The Eagles have a killer midfield that dominate on the big spaces of Subi where they are assured of 12 wins per year (they play 11 home games +1 away game against the Dockers). They are ordinary at best outside of the West as they have no spine (Cox excluded). Without the home finals they wouldn't make the GF and even then they are going to find it difficult to match a side like St Kilda with quality big men when the 'real' games start in September.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:37 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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verbs wrote:
On paper they have two number 1 draft picks, Riewoldt who is a star and Goddard who is struggling.

Kosi and Ball as number 2 picks. Stars.

The Clarke boys at 5 & 8, neither of whom have set the world on fire yet, nor do they look like developing into out and out champions.

The only other players drafted under pick 16 are Brooks (picked at 15 by Port traded for pick 6 & 31) who is just okay, Dal Santo was picked at 13 but that pick was received in return for Barry Hall, Aaron Fiora was a number 3 pick by Richmond...handy player but nothing special, Lenny Hayes a pick 11 but he's almost 26 years old, Hudghton pick 15 but he's 29 years old, Luke Penny at 14 by the Bulldogs...okay ruckman, nothing outstanding.

So by finishing low they have three stars and a bunch of mid standard players, many of whom were low draft picks by other clubs and on-traded to StKilda. The only low draft pick used as a trade was pick 6...which formed part of getting the uninspiring Brooks to the club.

They traded well for Dal Santo, but where they finished on the ladder for that trade was irrelevant reallly.

Take out Kosi, Riewoldt and Ball....would the Saints be able to challenge for a premiership?


It's interesting when you look at where St Kilda's players actually came from. The myth of never ending top picks is strong but in reality they've done really well with their mid-range picks too.

The thing is - we've done really well with lower picks too. Guys like Fisher, Betts, Carrazzo etc are exceptional pickups considering how we got them.

Will they play in a flag?

I certainly hope so.

The obvious difference between our list and St. Kilda's is that they do have those three stars in Riewoldt, Kosi and Ball. And most importantly it's not just what those three can do in an individual football sense it's what they do to bring the lesser lights into the game that's crucial. There really is no substitute for that sort of talent, that sort of example and that sort of leadership.

If those three were given to Carlton tomorrow we'd be playing finals next year. We need a chance to develop that sort of talent.

I don't expect a couple of top three picks to take the competition by storm next year but I do expect them to be our our best shot at having the sort of elite talent we need if we're going to get the best out of our other players.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:51 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Take out Kosi, Riewoldt and Ball....would the Saints be able to challenge for a premiership?

I think most people would answer no, myself included.

That said, the Saints do have a very even list, Gehrig, Milne, Hamill, Voss, Guerra and Powell are all important cogs in the machinery and all playd senior footy at other clubs prior.

And players like Montagna, MacGuire and Blake were picked mid to late in drafts.

Throw in a "handy" old-timer in Harvey and the balance for a competitive unit is well in place.

But the benefit of having Kosi, Riewoldt and Ball (and one would expect Goddard at some stage soon) could be the difference between them being competitive and being a premiership contender.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:53 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Okay - that's established - so how do we get them... :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:04 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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GWS wrote:
Okay - that's established - so how do we get them... :lol:


The time is ripe for us to get our own Kosi, Roo and Ball...plus a good Goddard.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:05 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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verbs wrote:
GWS wrote:
Okay - that's established - so how do we get them... :lol:


The time is ripe for us to get our own Kosi, Roo and Ball...plus a good Goddard.


Hey - here's an idea - maybe if we got some high draft picks! :shock:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:09 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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verbs wrote:
GWS wrote:
Okay - that's established - so how do we get them... :lol:


The time is ripe for us to get our own Kosi, Roo and Ball...plus a good Goddard.


Trouble is midfielders seema dime a dozen really. Murphy may well be a Judd, but the Kosi and Riewoldt KPP guns don't grow on trees. Would St Kilda be rated so highly if they had no serious KPP talent?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:09 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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GWS wrote:
verbs wrote:
GWS wrote:
Okay - that's established - so how do we get them... :lol:


The time is ripe for us to get our own Kosi, Roo and Ball...plus a good Goddard.


Hey - here's an idea - maybe if we got some high draft picks! :shock:


It ain't rocket science, is it? Is it?

We've been here before, and got robbed. We could've had Goddard, Wells, Cooney and someone like Bradley or Tenace on our list at the moment and things could've been vastly different to where we are now.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:19 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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camelboy wrote:
Trouble is midfielders seema dime a dozen really.


Guess we must have been paying nickles for too long... :(


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:31 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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camelboy wrote:
verbs wrote:
GWS wrote:
Okay - that's established - so how do we get them... :lol:


The time is ripe for us to get our own Kosi, Roo and Ball...plus a good Goddard.


Trouble is midfielders seema dime a dozen really. Murphy may well be a Judd, but the Kosi and Riewoldt KPP guns don't grow on trees. Would St Kilda be rated so highly if they had no serious KPP talent?


I think it's a bit of the chicken-n-egg thing.

Having good KPPs is important if you're going to win a premiership but if you don't have the mid-field to feed it to them then you ain't gonna get a chance to play for one.

Good midfielders are a dime-a-dozen but great midfielders are certainly not

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:05 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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GodisNavyBlue wrote:

Good midfielders are a dime-a-dozen but great midfielders are certainly not


True, but a great KPP is harder to find than a great midfielder IMO. Since Kosi and Riewoldt were drafted where are the next out and out standouts as far as big CHF/CHB types go? By standouts I mean, taken in the top 3 picks, the Judd, Cooney type standouts.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:18 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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camelboy wrote:
GodisNavyBlue wrote:

Good midfielders are a dime-a-dozen but great midfielders are certainly not


True, but a great KPP is harder to find than a great midfielder IMO. Since Kosi and Riewoldt were drafted where are the next out and out standouts as far as big CHF/CHB types go? By standouts I mean, taken in the top 3 picks, the Judd, Cooney type standouts.


I reckon Franklin & Roughead will be very good and it'll be interesting to see how they're rated against Deledio and Tambling in 5 years and ten years.

(It's okay I get it...)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:46 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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camelboy wrote:
GodisNavyBlue wrote:

Good midfielders are a dime-a-dozen but great midfielders are certainly not


True, but a great KPP is harder to find than a great midfielder IMO. Since Kosi and Riewoldt were drafted where are the next out and out standouts as far as big CHF/CHB types go? By standouts I mean, taken in the top 3 picks, the Judd, Cooney type standouts.


I know what you're say and hey if another Sticks or SOS pops up in the draft (though I think SonOfSonOfSerge is still a bit young yet :wink: ) I would be the first to nominate him.

I think from a Carlton perspective we have the makings of an excellent forward line, and while I would dearly love another tall backman it has been lack of midfield pressure that has obliterated our season this year.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:09 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Quote:
True, but a great KPP is harder to find than a great midfielder IMO. Since Kosi and Riewoldt were drafted where are the next out and out standouts as far as big CHF/CHB types go? By standouts I mean, taken in the top 3 picks, the Judd, Cooney type standouts.


Your probably right. My theory is that you need a strong spine before you have a strong side. If you have a strong spine you dont really need a good midfield but if you have a GUN midfield then you can have a weak spine (ala Weagles)

The trick is finding out what we want. Strong spine or GUN midfield. Go for the SPine in my opinion. We have Carlos, T-Bird and Aiskae and possibly Hartlet to get us started.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:37 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Quote:
I can't wait for Monday.

Carlton are shit we need priority picks. Sack Simmo, Sack Bentick, Sack Whitnall, Sack Kouta, Sack Fevola.

or

Carlton are killing themselves, sack Pagan for winning against Port, now we won't get Marc Murphy and we will be doomed for life.


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this site will be interetsing over the next month, should be win a couple.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:40 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Quote:
this site will be interetsing over the next month, should be win a couple.

I hope to go :lol: d we do. It was make for some fine "discussions"


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:44 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Locke wrote:
Quote:
True, but a great KPP is harder to find than a great midfielder IMO. Since Kosi and Riewoldt were drafted where are the next out and out standouts as far as big CHF/CHB types go? By standouts I mean, taken in the top 3 picks, the Judd, Cooney type standouts.


Your probably right. My theory is that you need a strong spine before you have a strong side. If you have a strong spine you dont really need a good midfield but if you have a GUN midfield then you can have a weak spine (ala Weagles)


Im not really sold on that whole theory. When people say that I think they're really only saying "Gee wouldn't it be neat to have Reiwoldt at CHF and Mal Michael at FB.

When you think about it, if you have an elite midfield you can compensate for weaker KPP players cause you get goals out of your midfielders and some of the average-ishness of your forwards is offset by your midfield winning more ball and delivering it more precisely.

On the other hand, a side with a a good spine and middle of the road midfielders is just that ... middle of the road. Strength and depth of midfield rotations is what seperates top four teams from 5-8.

Now elite midfielders go in the first 5 picks, but Reiwolt, Kosi and Pavlich aside, most of the game's premier KKP players went in picks 10-30. The lesson is, don't try and invent a Reiwolt if there's not one in the draft.

Given we only really have half a midfield as it is, and Campo and Kouta are bordering on retirement, I would take midfielders with our first two picks, and a KPP player with our 2nd rounder (or third first rounder if a suitable deal can be done for Whitnall).


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:45 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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If we win a couple of games I'll be doing this...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:46 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Fair point night crawler. Now that I think about it I cant think of any sides that have good spine and shit midfield. Next time Ill think my psots through.


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