me too...

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I certainly do agree with that. It wouldn't matter if we had no players over 190cm, if the BEST kid available in the draft was, I dunno, say 179cm, then we should pick the BEST kid available. Rather than potentially waste the pick filling a hole in our list with a riskier selection.

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We need accountable midfeilders they dont have to be world beaters just someone who can shutdown the oppositions elite players. We currently have no one. Bentick showed a bit on the weekend .
there are plenty of blokes such as Stevens, Campo - Walker and hopefully blackwell and co that can deliver the ball. We get hurt going the other way.
Give me a Brett Kirk or Jude Bolton or even Crouch to shut the others down and restrict the delivery into the opposition forwards .
Thats what we need more than anything

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Great bork there old chap at my question, there might yet be a place for you in the side with skills like that

You said that the best side on paper is not necessarily the best side, in other words picking up really good draft picks like St kilda won't give you the best team, and you compared them to this years Eagle team. So then I asked you whether St Kilda in two years time will be the best side once bodies have matured etc (see above). This is where your nice little side step and bork came in and you answered that .
So I'll ask again, (I'll re-phrase it slightly to take out some variables), do you think that the St Kilda team of today, if it sticks together, will be a better side than the Eagles in say two years? Although i can see from your previous answer that by saying they have "to much talent" is already conceding a little.

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

SHANNON HURN

Well said James Bond .... But i think St-Kilda do have the best list on paper have a good Football Manager but i am still yet to be convinced that Cornflakes is a good Matchday Coach.... which maybe hard for Saints if they dont get the Flag in next couple of Years..He may prove me wrong but i still think that GT may not be able to go all the way with the List he has though i am certain a few other coaches would be able to..but thats IMO. He has the best talent at his disposal .. the players seem to like him ... he seems to be a good organiser ... but i still am not convinced about his coaching...Maybe it dosnt matter as the talent he has may be able to get him over the line but maybe it will also be the factor if the Saints fail to get the flag. And a coment on West Coast they do have a good list as we know but they also have a good coach to.

I totally agree with what you said Wolfe. GT is not the best coach for the saints (we're not the only ones who think that). Can you imagine what DP, LM, Malthouse or Sheedy would do with a list like that With their uncompromising, hard, tough, no-nonsense style of footy...most teams would be too scared to walk on the park on match day. My point is (which is basically what this thread is about), is that Carlton need as many early draft picks as possible to build such a list, on top of some promising youngsters at the club already. This is where Prez and I differ...but i still respect his opinion

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

the one thing i will give st.kilda is that they have traded well.

they have got rid of some talent to get draft picks, i.e. Hall, Everitt etc.. and have done well with the players they have picked up.

combine that with the draft picks they have gotten over the years, they do have the best list on paper.

In two years time - will they still be the best team going around?

depends. If they can keep their list exactly as it is at the moment then yes, they could be, with more mature bodies they have enough talent to win a GF if they ever get there, still nto sure that they have the right man in Thomas for the job though.

however, having the same team together for that long is one hell of an "if" Hamill is big cog for them, and he looks as if his body is about to pack it in. Gehrig would be getting on at the moment as well, possibly may not be in the game in 2 - 3 years time. Harvey will have retired, but yes, if they have that side running around in 2 years they will most likely have the best list in the league.

However, things change - anything could happen. Fevola, Waite, Walker, T-Bird, Livingston with O'Halphin in the ruck could take the league by storm next year. Throw in the likes of Stevens, Fisher, Betts, Bryan, Russel, Marc Murphy (i hope), SImpson etc.. and suddenly their list may not be so good after all.

Look IMO - i think we are far from the worst list going around at the moment. We are a young list and that is our downfall, but there is massive scope for some of our kids to really improve and take the game by storm. i liken our position currently to where the Bulldogs where about 3 years ago. Very young but i really rate the bulldogs now. Think they have the talent, skill and the coach to win a flag within 5 years. They are probably a key forward away from really being a top 4 contender.

Maybe the move would suit both Carlton, the Bulldogs and Whitnall if he went to the Bulldogs.

We get Bulldogs first and 2nd round picks, plus possibly a player or go for their first round and a player of decent quality. I think it could be a win win for both clubs.

Also think there is merit in looking at getting Goddard (who i rate as well as a CHB, there was a pervious post where i was "badmouthing" goddard but it was comparing pick 1 to pick 2 and goddard v wells - IMO wells is a better player) from the saints for a swap involving Lappin and possibly Campo of it would get the deal done.

talk about turning into a different direction

anyways - a couple of good trades for us i think

Whitnall - Bulldogs 1st and 2nd Round pick
Lappin (and Campo) to St Kilda for Goddard

and this isnt get goddard becuase he loves carlton. i just think he would be awesome for us as a CHB.

people arent going to like it but

Thorton - Goddard - Hartlett (from what i have seen of him) could be a really good offensive CHB line.

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

Not quite mobile enough.
Harltet could take the CHF and Goddard is a slow lumbering giant.
It still 10x better than our current half-back line now though

I reckon Thronton should play on a wing but he is holding the defense together (well he was when he was playing)

Hmmm....sounds good doesn't it. It's amazing how a few good picks/trades can suddenly make a team into a different and more competitive outfit.....

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

goddard at CHB? how tall is he? thought he was only 190cms odd?

not that tall for KPP, especially one who seems to have some mobility issues. i know he is staked for mucsle but what the use if you cant use it properly?

190cms? Mobility issues? Reminds me of someone else

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"You've got no fear of The Underdog, that's why you will not survive"
- Spoon, 2007
- Western Bulldogs, 2016

Yep i agree with you James Bond ... The list as it stands has got many deficienceies and problems but with the injection of some good Picks / smart trades / Something in the PSD ... Add the players who have been getting experience in the magoos ... The team could be a different combination next year and that is what i am hoping for ... The list has some good points and bad points ... maybe the mix is wrong but a slight rejig on the list and change of the mix and we could have a much more competative Team.. Well i am hoping we do

All i can say is it will be great to see Murphy in a Carlton jumper and thats why the first pick is crucial.

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If for some crazy reason we win this weekend that would put us on 4.5 wins.

What sort of side would we field for the remainder of the year?

Would Stevo, Fev, Waite, Fish, Carrots, Simmo, etc etc suddenly all come down with injuries or the dreaded flu?

How many bullants could we elevate to the seniors in one go????

Forget that - bring back Chatfield & Vance.

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"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies." - Gene Hill

Hey...I'd pull the boots on and run around the paddock in a Blues jumper. They'd be guaranteed a loss with me on the park.

We expect every player that runs out in the Navy Blue to play to the best of their ability every week and to win games. If they do not then they are open to criticism or even to be delisted or traded at seasons end.

So when we ‘play for picks’ we are in effect asking the players not to play to their ability. This of course work well for those advocating to ‘playing for picks’ because they not get a much-cherished priority Pick but they also get to ‘pot’ their least favorite players. For the ‘Play for Picks’ advocates this is called a win/win, but is it really?

There are plenty of arguments put forward by the “Play for Picks’ advocates and I will examine each one.

‘It is good for the club!” they cry. Is it? As we have seen over the past 3 months our crowds have dropped off quite alarmingly, people are not interested in watching a team play as poorly as ours have. Of course finishing last will see a drop off in membership and sponsors, note our increase in memberships and sponsors this year was built on the back of last years improvement and Wizard cup form, not because of the excitement of having early picks. Because of this years form the club is facing a trading loss again. So if we finish in lower reaches of the ladder for a number of years that some suggest we should, I am not sure how much of this sort of ‘good’ we can sustain.

“Well we can develop the younger players’ is one justification. As someone who has been involved in sport all his life I fail to see how finishing last will aid the development of a younger player, other than to teach them that either they are not good enough or that it is O.K to perform at a lower level than what is required because that is what the club wants. In short they are taught to be losers. What a developing player needs and a lot of it is belief that they are good enough, that they can indeed win. You do this by encouraging the player to go out and play at their best at all times. That means winning games when and where they can. That is the only way to teach a player the belief that not only can they win but gives them that extra hardness they will need to win the crunch games later on in their careers. I would suggest last weekends win over Richmond did more for the younger players development than any number of priority picks will and certainly far more than the previous 11 losses did. To be honest I hope the younger players go on to continue to win for the rest of the season. This will allow the player group a positive lead in to next season and allow any new draft pick to enter a club that has a positive ‘vibe’ rather than club that has spent the better part of a season being battered from pillar to post.

“The system is designed to reward finishing last and we should exploit that” is a more pious justification. Yes there is a reward for finishing last, but the essence of competition is to compete to the best of your ability, thus by not competing to the best of your ability, then you are exploiting a rule to gain an unfair advantage over your competitors. It does amuse me that many who advocate “playing for picks’ are also those who are highly critical of the concessions that have been handed out to other clubs to make them more competitive, which leads me into my next point.

“We need to get rid of the cancer that infects our club” is given as a reason to finish last by allowing us to clear the last remnants of the previous administration. Actually by deliberately finishing last as the ‘play for picks’ advocate we are merely perpetuating the cancer that ran through our club over the past few years i.e. exploiting the system to gain an unfair advantage, to manipulate the rules contrary to the spirit of the competition. In short cheat. The last time the club cheated we paid dearly for it. I wonder at times if we did learn anything at all from that sad period in the clubs history.

The last point I want to address is the call that we need to ‘import a culture’ from another club. That we should emulate St Kilda should get some good old ‘Shinboner’ in us, anything it would appear but our own culture. History teaches us that it is impossible to impose one culture onto another’s culture. There is always resentment and inevitably conflict between the opposing factions. What we really need to do is take all that is good about the ‘Carlton’ culture, enhance it and develop it further. Lets create a culture based on hard work and total commitment to success that is entirely our own, not someone else’s.

Finally I do not believe our club will be successful by ‘playing for picks’ or importing ‘cultures.’ We can only be successful if every single player, coach and staff member work as hard as they can, at all times to build an expectation of success and a winning culture that is so ingrained that it becomes second nature.

If that means missing out on the Priority Pick then so be it.


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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

A win would definitely polarise opinions around here. Like we need that, Port by ten goals. It's only a prediction.

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Blue is the colour, Blue is our colourful conversation, football is the game, talking carlton is our aim, we're all together, we're all together, winning is our aim, arguing is a pain, let's debate for gain. .. .!

Port easily - and of not, oh well, least it will make the train ride home easier

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!