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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:15 am 
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Harry Vallence
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I obviously haven't seen the match yet but many people are on about players attitude. There has to be something drastically wrong is you can't get motivated for your greatest rivals :cry:

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:44 am 
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Harry Vallence
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http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/real ... 10733.html

Pagan agreed the Blues had lost much ground with an insipid performance in the second half. "There is no doubt about that," he said. "That is exactly what we said to the guys after the game: 'All the good work that you have done is all meaningless now.'

Not sure I like telling the players that all their hard work is meaningless after one poor half of footy. With a young team I think we need to be a little more positive than that.


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 1:21 am 
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Robert Walls

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Kevin Bohane wrote:
I obviously haven't seen the match yet but many people are on about players attitude. There has to be something drastically wrong is you can't get motivated for your greatest rivals :cry:


Nothing wrong with the motivation in the first half, so I don't see where Pagan has lost the players. Problem is we fell apart when things went against us after half time. Probabaly more a fault of on field leadership.


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 1:42 am 
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Bruce Doull
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steve wrote:
http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/realfooty/articles/2006/05/07/1146940410733.html

Pagan agreed the Blues had lost much ground with an insipid performance in the second half. "There is no doubt about that," he said. "That is exactly what we said to the guys after the game: 'All the good work that you have done is all meaningless now.'

Not sure I like telling the players that all their hard work is meaningless after one poor half of footy. With a young team I think we need to be a little more positive than that.

I disagree, if they are slacking off mentally they need to be reigned in.

And it's true, if we're not going to earn respect with victories, we're going to earn it with being competitive, and that is not what we were in the second half.


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:08 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Simple Solution lets sack all the hacks and the coaching panel except Mitchell and Daniher and the ruck coach Dempsey,actually let's email it to the club,i was actually clapping for the first time in 25 years every goal collingwood kicked when they were up by 6 goals agains't us,only because it's one nail more in the coffin for some players and coaching panel.

If we going to play like that, i like to see us get flogged every game,so changes are made,instead of the crap that comes out of the mouth, saying we getting better from Pagan.

Let''s hope we win next week or i hope it's another 60-100 point loss,if we play like that,coming to 5th years of wasting 5 years i can't get back,all those wasted hours. :evil:


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:13 am 
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Harry Vallence
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BlueWorld wrote:
Kevin Bohane wrote:
I obviously haven't seen the match yet but many people are on about players attitude. There has to be something drastically wrong is you can't get motivated for your greatest rivals :cry:


Nothing wrong with the motivation in the first half, so I don't see where Pagan has lost the players. Problem is we fell apart when things went against us after half time. Probabaly more a fault of on field leadership.


Ah ok must have picked up what people were saying wrongly

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:00 am 
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Robert Walls
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You cna't expect to be competitive with a Pagan ultra defensive game plan.

If we played Blackwell, Setanta; JR, and Bower we might lose by 10 goals but at least we'd blood some kids.

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 Post subject: Pagan
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:26 am 
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Rod McGregor

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I don't really want to buy into the get rid of Pagan debate but I will say that I was a little bemused as to why it took 4 1/2 minutes to move Saddington off Dale Thomas at the start of the third. I thought it was a basic coaching fundamental to check your match ups at the start of each quarter.


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:47 am 
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Robert Walls
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I still think Pagan is the man for the job... BUT... let's face it. With all of the white-anting going on around here (which means it is also going on at the club), the man is mortally wounded. It's like watching Bob Hawke in 1991, as the Keating wolves surrounded him. It didn't matter what Hawke did he was lampooned for it. The rest is history. Same with Pagan. The wolves can smell blood, and there's no way out. The sooner we change for everyone's sake the better. The key with the next coach will be for everybody to remember that we need to be patient. Let's give whoever it is a real chance.


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:15 am 
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Wayne Johnston

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jimmae wrote:
jim wrote:
jimmae wrote:
The buck stops with the coach? Who is in la-la land?!

So the players are mindless drones with which Pagan operates by remote control and any failings they have to adhere to his plans are automatically his failings? Any mistakes they make are his mistakes?

I think there's a fundamental flaw here, your assessment.

Let's just throw anyone in our 22 and Pagan should be able to make them win games. That's like going into a retail store, demanding a discount on everything you buy, and wondering why they won't give it to you.
No fundamnetal flaw at all. We're not in a retail store as the club selects the best available footballers at a draft, not Joe Blogs in a retail store. Can't believe you made such a comment. With those players he coaches, he teaches, he plans etc...and if he dosen't get that right, and gain the player's respect, your side goes crap and he gets the boot. If he gets it right we wins games. Sadly we're crap. That's the essence of coaching. If that's not his job, why have a coach. I find that very simple to understand. Have a look at us, how many more excuses can you make for him. You're in la-la land if you think otherwise.

I'll make plenty of excuses for him when players are failing to work for each other and execute basic skills.

How much of it now is Pagan, and how much of it is players doubting themselves and the majority of the playing group. They need to drag themselves out of this rut and work hard how they use the footy and create space for clean use of the footy.

He's giving them instructions I'm sure, he's certainly not the one attempting to execute them.

We go long and direct we fail and the ball comes screaming back.

We play uncontested footy and chip and the ball comes screaming back.

Two completely different game plans yet the opposition still find themselves in space with numbers and none of our blokes in sight.

THIS IS NOT THE COACH'S FAULT. This is called not thinking beyond streaming forward and putting your hand up for the ball. The players are not themselves at the moment, they're afraid of what might go wrong.

Pagan's only responsibilities are that the areas of their game that need to be developed are developed, that they have as suitable a gameplan as possible for them to stay competitive, that what they need to be polished up on is polished up as much as time can allow and that they are mentally focused on the task at hand.

If Pagan fails to have his players prepared to play whether they be scared of mistakes they might make or uninspired by his methods WHEN our 22 is ready to push for finals, then I will be on the anti-Pagan side.

Until then he does the best he can with what he has and he errs on the side of protecting players when the need is there and developing what needs to be developed, whether that be marking, kicking, decision making, postional play, whatever.

The coach is not the sole perpretator of a losing game of football, that is how you are portraiting it.
What your saying then in reality is that a coach is unnecessary. I'm a track & field coach and I can tell you technically, which includes teaching, technique, off-track work etc.., and performance-wise (eg: success of actual training program), the buck stops with me. If those things aren't functioning they soon find a new coach. I know that as well as anyone. Same goes in any sport, AFL no different. That includes Pagan. To say otherwise is plainly niave and dumb.

Well, anyway, you continue to think what you want. Just don't complain when we keeping losing games looking a rabble, with no skill playing with no real want or passion. Enjoy the football.


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:20 am 
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Robert Walls
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THe trouble is Jimmae, Pagan's best with what he's got is not good enough.

The defensive flood migh see us stay competitive for a quarter or two but its does nothing to develop players, nor win games.

It is entirely his responsibility. No one elses.

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:31 am 
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formerly blue-insider
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Wild Blue Yonder wrote:
THe trouble is Jimmae, Pagan's best with what he's got is not good enough.

The defensive flood migh see us stay competitive for a quarter or two but its does nothing to develop players, nor win games.

It is entirely his responsibility. No one elses.


Both WBY and italian_styles you guys, along with a host of others calling for Pagan to be sacked, simply have the Richmond mentality! Fools!

Take a really good look at our team. 12 of the 22 on the field would not get a game at another club! Shit players with shit skills who who don't give a shit out on the field have nothing to do with 'game plan' or coaching. If you were not so one-eyed and looking for blood you would realise our team will take more than 5 years to rebuild. You just can't get a whole new team from one draft and can't expect to win games because we have a new coach.

What really is different with our team from last year? What did you expect? Gee, these guys have been in the gym and working on skill over the pre-season - big f**cken deal - so has the rest of the competition!

We have two new good players in Murph and JK who will take 3 years before they are worthy. Walker needs another 2.

We are in for a long and bleak 2-3 more years before anything will change. You expectations are way too high. We are the wooden spooners from last year and will come very close again. Sacking the coach achieves nothing. It is a loser mentality, short term feel good jab in the arm and does not move the club forward. And as for all the shit slinging you guys have been posting - tell me something - what coaching experience at AFL level do you have? Nothing. Which equals your idiotic opinions.
:evil:


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:44 am 
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Rod Ashman
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At the end of the day the coach must take responsibility.

Who is given credit for getting the Socceroos into the World Cup: the players or Guis Hiddink?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:03 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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blue-insider wrote:
[ And as for all the shit slinging you guys have been posting - tell me something - what coaching experience at AFL level do you have? Nothing. Which equals your idiotic opinions.
:evil:


Compared to your informative post? :?

Who are the 12 who would not get a game at another club?

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:04 am 
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Bruce Comben

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I've never believed in sacking a coach mid-season or in this case early season, but it is obvious the club is in need of drastic change. Our senior players look jaded their spirit broken. This is not just the observations of frustrated Carlton supporters, but a wide spread view in the football community. We have turned over seemingly endless players on our list over the last four seasons, and each time we've heard the same chorus from fans how player x had a negative effect on the player group and how much better we will be without them. Nothings changed!

Draft pick restrictions have held us back but are not responsible for the following:

a) how players who were able to get a game 1999-2001 when we were genuine premiership contenders were unable to get a game during the worst period of our clubs proud history

b) why so many of our players are under developed physically? Sure their young and were drafted skinny, but so were many fom other clubs and they seem to have developed far quicker than ours.

c) how trends in the modern game have passed us by. Yes we now have embraced the flood but have not yet worked out how to work the ball forward while using this tactic. We are way behind other clubs in midfied bench rotations, set plays from kick ins, defending kick ins etc.

d) skill decline - I'm not talking about young players with stage fright but seasoned performers who have proven previously their abiliy yet now commit skill error after skill error

Is Denis Pagan soley responsible for the above, I don't know but someone must take responsability and do something about it.

I hate being this negative but I believe this has to be addressed and soon!


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:07 am 
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Robert Walls

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blue-insider wrote:
Take a really good look at our team. 12 of the 22 on the field would not get a game at another club! Shit players with shit skills who who don't give a shit out on the field have nothing to do with 'game plan' or coaching. If you were not so one-eyed and looking for blood you would realise our team will take more than 5 years to rebuild. You just can't get a whole new team from one draft and can't expect to win games because we have a new coach.

What really is different with our team from last year? What did you expect? Gee, these guys have been in the gym and working on skill over the pre-season - big f**cken deal - so has the rest of the competition!

We have two new good players in Murph and JK who will take 3 years before they are worthy. Walker needs another 2.

We are in for a long and bleak 2-3 more years before anything will change. You expectations are way too high. We are the wooden spooners from last year and will come very close again. Sacking the coach achieves nothing. It is a loser mentality, short term feel good jab in the arm and does not move the club forward. And as for all the shit slinging you guys have been posting - tell me something - what coaching experience at AFL level do you have? Nothing. Which equals your idiotic opinions.
:evil:


hmm... so you are saying that we need to spend another 2-3 yrs at the bottom for us to become good. That would make what - 6/7yrs where we have been at the bottom. How many clubs regularly spend that period of time at the bottom nowadays?

also on your comment about AFL experience and what not - so I presume you dont listen to 99.9% of people when it comes to AFL coaching? - the only ones that would be worth listening to are current and ex coaches that are in the media (walls, blight, - anyone else?). Just curious though - what are you doing on these boards then? - I note that in some of your posts that you have commented on players performances rather than just support the team. I presume you have played AFL level football? - alsothat you have had a career in advertising, and not to mention regular role in both national print and televised media?

Afterall you have commented on all of those issues previously...


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:08 am 
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Robert Walls
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The insider has exposed his credentials as a flower.

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:11 am 
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Robert Walls

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Blue Vain wrote:
blue-insider wrote:
[ And as for all the shit slinging you guys have been posting - tell me something - what coaching experience at AFL level do you have? Nothing. Which equals your idiotic opinions.
:evil:


Compared to your informative post? :?

Who are the 12 who would not get a game at another club?


BV, he is allowed to comment - blue-insider is/has been on the selection committee of an AFL club you know. As for me, despite my best attempts - unfortunately there isnt much of a need for molecular biology or viruses at football clubs these days. I guess I will have to restrict my posting to comments such as 'Go Blues' or 'I support carlton' from here on in


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:19 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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4thchicken wrote:
BV, he is allowed to comment - blue-insider is/has been on the selection committee of an AFL club you know.


Well, I realised that when I read this post elsewhere.

Blue-Insider wrote:
Your rationale is based on stupidity and acheives nothing :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:22 am 
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formerly blue-insider
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Wild Blue Yonder wrote:
The insider has exposed his credentials as a flower.


Obviously a 15yo posting here. Go do your homework!


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