I remember when we beat Brisbane at Princes Park by 89 points, I think it was in 2001.

After that match Brisbane strung together 13 wins or so and won the flag.

Matthews and probably others as well must have got into his players heads in a way which made them believe that they could achieve.

While clearly Carlton is nowhere near the potential of Brisbane at that time, if we had players that responded better to the coach, we might have not put in the bad first quarters that have cost us at least 2 wins...

Young players need to be developed, but a big part of the problem is motivating the players to play for the jumper.

So I'd say that part of the problem is a communication issue.

Pagan cant inspire and motivate players in the way that other coaches can.

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My Blue Heaven

Clem:
Hello, I'm not the Carlton Football Club.

What I want and what they do are two different things. But I can see where he's coming from, and who is pressuring him into doing it.

You're heaping too much onto Denis IMO.

Totally agree with this statement we are all looking forward to see our young guys rotated thru the seniors and allowing our boys to ATTACK a game of freaking football. (not this flooding the centre to backline crap keeps us comptetive doesnt make us WIN!!!!)


How confidence building is it when you coach is going into every game tryin to avoid a humilation and not get the win. LET THE BOYS PLAY FOR flower SAKE PAGAN

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Can smell the gf its there for the taking we are the form side

Now you're trying to shaft Denis' share of the blame onto Smorgon.

It's kind of hard to get us back into the black when we're losing games like we did on Sunday. At least if we get beaten with kids on the park, they might show something and who knows, the kids might actually get us over the line if they show enough collectively.

Denis has little faith in kids. Clarkson has followed a youth policy and he's not doing too badly over at Hawthorn (he might have lost on the weekend but they've done ok over 5 weeks, certainly better than us). If I were a Hawks supporter, I'd stay on the bandwagon, because a few of their kids have shown quite a bit and I am hopeful, even though they suffer losses occasionally. It also seems Clarkson shows confidence in his kids - his handling of Dawson was good. Even good fullbacks get smashed up from time to time (we saw SOS have his off days).

You seem to be trying to shield Denis from any blame and will blame anyone but him. Why should he not be accountable for what's happened on the field?

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Would three coaches in a row winning wooden spoons be a record?

We crurrently have wooden spoons from two out of two. I wonder if the new coach would get the responisibility for the wooden spoon this year?

I'm not shielding him at all.. I'm merely diverting some of it from him.

You cannot sit there and point at the bloke and say everything that is happening is his fault.

Where I differ from you (and a growing number of posters) is that you feel he is the most responsible, and I feel this is not the case.

If you had listened to Pagan pre-game om ABC radio, I'm not sure you would be so convinced. It was very depressing.

Sooner or later the development of those kids will require them to win some games, or play the sort of footy that will allow them to.

Look at the Hawks last year. Clarkson got them playing attacking, free-spirited footy and they are chockers with confidence now.

Our boys are pretty much driftwood, and don't seem to be getting much of an education on how to win footy games.

I don't see that as very good for their development at all.

Sure Sk.Kilda must've managed at some stage.

We don't have a 22 that we can say "we can play good footy with this 22 over the next few years."

They did.

2002 we at least got Simmo and Fisher, not bad types at all (one's being misused badly at present, the other is as good an overhead mark for his sizeI've seen), and thankfully missed out on Goddard (Wells would've been handy). In 2003 we got Walker and Steven (PSD admittedly, but a bonus given our penalties). Probably did better there in the draft there than sides that finished in the 8 and get normal 1st & 2nd round selections, although it hasn't affected Sydney or Geelong at all given there's few, if any, high selections in either team. Draft penalites are just another Pagan cop-out.

No it wouldnt.. the record is held by Stkilda.. 15 coaches in a row...
Look i dont give a fu(k about wooden spoons .. i just want to see things done properly, kids developing and we have a game plan we can fine tune... the players play with passion and thats all i ask for.

We wont win the spoon forever..

What we do have is a bunch of great kids.. and more coming.. but the process needs to be upto date so we give ourselves every opportunity to allow Walker Murph etc to bring home the bacon...
Thats all it should be about now...making this period COUNT inside the timeframe the kids will be playing football.
We owe it to them and ourselves.

Pagan isnt capable of doing it.. because they arent responding.

the spoons are of no consequence except as an avenue to the next club champions.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Do you think our boys look like they are learning anything on-field? Do you think having 16 players backward of centre is a motivation to go in harder?

Do you think hearing the coach state on radio that the flood is because we do better with numbers behind the ball and that if we played more man on man it's harder to stop the blowouts? This in spite of the fact that in most games this year we have not been too bad in the one-on-one contested possession stakes.

Put yourself on the field. Do you think you would be motivated to play that style? be a forward instructed to keep running to the wing and even HBF? To be Andrew Walker runing off HBF or deeper and when he gets to the centre ready to kick inside 50, see a wall of 4 opposition and 1 Fevola?

Does that give you a good mental image? Is that likely to get your best disposal to come out?

WHY do you think players who have shown that they do have good skills are struggling to produce it on -field? And I'm talking of Stevens, Scotland, Lappin, Simmo, even Murphy now ...

I'm not attacking Pagan, I'm just saying it is not working. There is no point going on with him. If we are going to cop beltings, I'd rather it be trying to create something with a forward line instead of 16 backmen.

true headplant!!!!!!!!!!!!

go down fighting as opposed tothe over defensive that we are doing now

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Can smell the gf its there for the taking we are the form side

Ok, it's now just a thread between myself and those who want Pagan gone, futile argument.

Hope it all works out for everybody in the end.

They wouldnt be enjoying being the patsies that are out there to preserve Denis career.

Its pretty selfish ...

They should be out there playing, enjoying (after all theyre a young group) and learning ..

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

What he said.

We have a decent forward line and we've kicked 13 or fewer goals in each game...

Truly appalling statistics. I think GWS had a great post earlier tonight...couldn't have said it any better.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

1000 Legends in for $1000 - PAGAN OUT!!!

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Just out of interest - did we get belted more in 2003 than 2002?