Synbad -
Ok, assuming that the draft is so strong that the consensus is that we definitely WONT get a top 10 pick for Fev.
If we somehow manage to score the 2 top 10 picks that we demand from other clubs (including that one in the top 6) then what is the issue? We have come out way ahead in the deal.
If clubs come back and say we will only offer you pick 10 then we say no deal. Again, whats the problem?

On forward targets - so you are telling me that a combination of lance, waite, fisher, kennedy and possibly setanta will provide less of a target up forward then say the current WC or dogs forward lines? Our issue isnt that lack of targets up forward - its the pisspoor team structure.

If we didnt flood and played attacking football from the outset we WOULD have scored more than 5 points

Livo's been out with a back injury last few weeks & only returned to the Bullants yesterday.

As you say he uses the ball better than Livo, whose ball use is...well below average.

I know the "rules" Sheik, but the TBB approach is the one I was advocating. Realistically, there'd be a culture shock if you introduced TOO MANY players on the list. Cutting 10 means all the chaff is gone, and we can hang onto one or 2 other guys who we might be able to still work on (ie, Wiggins).

We're also not likely to get any trades, unless we swap a Fevola or Stevens or Whitnall (which I doubt we will... Whitnall I hope, but the others not)... so no trades for us.

I think 3 rookie elevations is a possibility.

I think Batson we HAVE to promote and keep working on. If not, then the 2 years we've put in have been pointless. You don't pick a 200cm+ 17 year old ruckman, and then dump him just before he hits his development curve..... promote him to the senior list and start giving him a bit of a taste in some pre-season games or get him a regular gig with the ants..... if his attitude is right, then they've GOT to promote Batson

O'hAilpin too, but if we can keep him on the rookie list a year longer (international rule????) then I'd leave him there.... but again, more time required.

Some will disagree but I really hope Smith gets some form in the ants and presents as a candidate for promotion. A hard nut who's strong in the middle.... we need that... he's short of some polish but he could provide some punch and I reckon he's worth working on.

Jackson and Flint are probably both likely to remain, on the rookie list at worst. I would happily promote one of those as my 3rd (if O'hAilpin can remain on the rookie list).... probably Jackson but whomever presents the best.... and the other to remain anyway

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I said you are prone to fits of sillyness, not that you are clueless.

I understand where you're coming from but it's going to take a falling out or a ridiculously large offer to make us trade Fev or Stevens, why would you do it otherwise? They do so much at the club with the younger blokes, along with Whitnall that they provide a lot more than what they produce out on the field (which on average is very good, especially considering the circumstances).

But we recruited Saddington to play KP defence and he is playing that wide i can touch him from the stands...

The guy is scared!!!.... he does it ever week...

At least Livo isnt frightened...

Id even play Sporn before i play Saddo.. but we will keep playing Saddo to show how we know which players to target...just to prove a point.

It was always a mistake!!!

He was never what we were telling ourselves he was!!!.. and he had 2 good knees..

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Sheik, exactly what Tyrant just said. Added to that, do you really know after 1 season if an 18 year old is going to make it? What if they show just enough that we want to keep them around....we then cant because we need to delist them to make room. If we're delisting them anyway, what was the point of drafting them? Change for the sake of it?

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I think Sheik may have overlooked the nature of the draft the resultant restraints that occur when you delist a first year player.

Synners can you provide something to suggest we recruited Saddo to play as a KPP? He has never really been that ever so why would we try?

I'd almost back it in that he was recruited as a composed, experienced rebounding defender who has height, acceleration and a bit of pace for his size.

26 years old, 194 cms and 85 kgs, you'd be delusional to pick him to play key-position based on his height alone at that age.

we wouldn't have even scored that...

I can't agree with you about a percieved 'culture shock'. If you are bringing in a raft of new players, I believe it brings a sense of excitement & optimisim, not only for the other players on the list but also the supporters.

The only disruption or disadvantage would be during the off-season when the newbies were getting acclimatised, might be some teething problems which is to be expected.

My cricket club expanded dramatically last season, we went from three teams to six. This meant that we brought in around 45 new players to the club overall. The whole playing group were really interested in who had arrived at the club, especially during pre-season training when everyone was being trialled for selection. The immediate injection of talent made the club an exciting place to be and the atmosphere was positive and excited.

I see no reason why the same couldn't apply at the Carlton footy club. A swag of new players arrive and show that they have something to offer, players and supporters would be quite excited and lookiong forward to seeing them hopefully perform. There would have to be an increase in optimism and also an increased pressure on the older players to perform to ensure selection in the seniors. Seems like a win-win to me.



When you are so far down on the ladder as we are, it's doubtful that we would be offered full-tote odds on the players we believe have some value at the trade table. Carlton fans always over-value their players so our expectations on what is a fair return would be way off the mark as to what was actually achieved.

I agree on Whitnall, if he is ever going to be traded away, it'll be at the end of this season whilst he still has some market value.



Again I'll agree with you here, if this guy has a chance of making it, we must retain him. We'd all be shat off if we flicked him prematurely and he blossomed elsewhere. I know that most people believe that big men take longer to reach their potential so if that adage is true, then he needs to be persisted with. However, if there are any signs that he lacks commitment, ability or dedication etc, we must cut our losses and move on to our next project. The long term nature of their development dictates that !!

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GROUND ZERO + DRAFTING YOUTH = SUSTAINED SUCCESS

I understand your rationale there Brad but I do believe that you need some flexibility to move. If you get a guy who has shown glimpses, then re-sign him for a further 12 months. However, if you have a Cameron Croad/Karl Norman scenario (we always hope not but .... ) you need to be able to punt them without having to pay out a longer termed contract.

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GROUND ZERO + DRAFTING YOUTH = SUSTAINED SUCCESS

The big man told me....

The same guy that went after Mott.."because ruckmen need time so we dont need to draft a ruckman" .. Chambers.."because he has Judd like pace."... Longmuire.. "because he is a dead eye dick and will take Fish's spot..."and Co...



Bandaid after bandaid..

When in fact there was ever only one likely solution.... THE DRAFT and TIME!!!.... nothings changed.... THE DRAFT AND TIME!!!...

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It's a reasonable and cheap bandaid in this case Synners, your biggest problem (IMO) is that you keep heaping what we do each year draft/trade time and point at the aggrigate result and exercising hind sight on draft picks.

Hardly a fair place to take potshots from. The Saddington trade was a sound one and we haven't lost out yet just because he doesn't dive into a pack (where he would probably be snapped in half anyway).

I think we all agree that we need to add more skill pace and class to the team. Any LTI's to senior players and we should elevate one of Flint, Smith and Jackson that is if we can afford it and see if they can make the grade.

As for the end of season cull I'm not sure about getting rid of any of youngsters when Longmuir, Chambers, Bannister, Bryan, Prendergast, Teague, and Livingston will provide a few vacancies on the list. That's 7 delisted without any major impact and when you add Lappin and Sporn plus possibly DeLuca I think the cuts may stop. May be able to get a third round pick as trade for Bannister Prendergast or Sporn?

Ten vacancies on the list and probably 3 picks in the first 20 if we don't win more than 5 games. Quite a few talls rated very highly in the draft, possibly first 3 to 6, so do we take a gamble and go for the best midfielder?

Saddington is just shit

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I was against Saddington from the moment i heard about that.... !!!

Same with McLaren....

Did he really offer more today against the worst ruck combo in the league than French would have???

The problem with French is the way Denis asks him to play....

Same as every other player on our list....

If you really analyse things youd realise... denis has every player on our list just about playing in a fashion that Denis would dream for them to play.. not what they really ARE!!!...

Betts is a midfielder now...
Simmo is a back pocket.
McGrath is a defender.
Saddington KP.
Walker a tagger.
Scotland is a hbflanker... (not sure why we took him .. he was a midfielder)
Carazzo... not sure but in a game where we need the ball.. and he can find the ball.. hes a tagger...
Houla is the sweeper along with Lappiun but theyre forwards...
Stevens isnt an attacking footballer hes behind the ball...
Lance is a CHB...
Fev is a FF but he must run with the defender.. so the opposition coach says to the FB.. run to the centre.. and Fev now has to run out of the 50 meter arc...
Digby had to put on 10 kilos and then take it back off...(CHF)
Russell is a tagger .... but he used to be a flanker/wingman with run out...


We will probably turn Kennedy into a ruckmen. (we need one)
Murph will be a tagger....




It goes on and on....


People are good at some things... and thats how they should be played!!!

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It's funny how we try and make our ruckmen play as loose men in defence

How dumb can you get having blokes 200cm tall who have shit mobility and aren't able to read the play playing loose in defence.

Compare that to every other side who has a mobile half back flanker.
It was funny seeing Maguire just do what he wanted as the saints were able to mark the ball inside 50 even with Mclaren sitting in front of them

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

If you can't play more than one role at AFL level chances are you're going to go out the door backwards pretty damn fast.

Is a Flooder now considered a role ?

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

You need 18 roles to come together in a small area to get a flood going...
i can just see little Johnnys footy cards... picture of Joe Bloggs.. and underneath that.. 'Flooder'...

"Dad when i grow up i wanna be a flooder.. just like everybody else...i dont want to be a FF.... everyone points at you"

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Very well said Synbad...

We have a game plan that suits the opposition more than our team. I know we haven't got many strengths but Whitnall is a CHF and yet plays at CHB, Livingston was an all Australian under 18 CHF but we turn him into a FB, Simmo plays best when he carries the ball (wing) yet he plays in a BP. Walker who is our most creative player is now a tagger and the list goes on and on.