If we had a 200K coach we'd be calling for his head as well, you people who want Pagan out, you wouldn't have a job next year if you came last with this mob because your peers would have 'expected better'.

People like to conveniently forget what happened last year. We won 10 games. Who was coach then?

_________________
"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Disagree. While no doubt there was a push from anti-Elliott & wizard cup factors the overwhelming reason for our rise in numbers - and more importantly retention of those members - is the man in charge. Why else would the television ad be centred on Denis?

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"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies." - Gene Hill

More than speculation: that's exactly what would have happened. Coming off a 930K fine, that might have been catastrophic. Pagan was one of the single biggest factors in getting things back on track off-field, and he's the best bet on the field as well.

_________________
"You've got no fear of The Underdog, that's why you will not survive"
- Spoon, 2007
- Western Bulldogs, 2016

Your right CC regardless of who was the coach supporters would be calling for his head . People dont like coming last particually Carlton supporters . I would say if it was anyone other than Pagan he would be out practicing his special comments by now.

Dont use last year as an example - when you go back and have a good look at it . It really hides the fact that we are shit and I think we were all sucked in by it. Look at the sides we beat

Geelong - depleted through injury
Collingwood - depleted through injury
Crows -In crisis
Hawthorn -In crisis
Tigers - In crisis
West Coast - Hopeless in Melb
Ess - we always beat them once
Melb -In the middle of a big loosing streak
Kangas - maybe an honest win but they were down at the time

I'll admit I was sucked into thinking we were better than we thought
I'll admit I was sucked into thinking Pagan was doing a good job

But looking back on it the decisions that were made over the last two years in regards to playing list were totally wrong .

It seems that this year three years down the track they may do something about it.

There was no need in my mind to turf out players like Allan - Murphy - Franchina- Hulme ( I wont mention the B person) and replace them with Morrell - Scotland - Deluca - Johnson . I think it sent the wrong message to the playing group and thats why despite all of Pagans efforts the team does not respond.
A lot of the comments that are made in public must also have an effect on the playing group. (ie give me draft picks and I will give you wins) How must the players feel when he stands there on his soap box and tells the world the guys I have are shit. He has even got the president saying it also. We all know its true but do you really want to hear it. It must knock what ever confidence the players have and this IMO is why when we get into a position to win a game we dont because the players do not have the confidence in their own ability to see it through.

Football side fortunes have been known to turn around in 24 hours ( ie Port Adelaide - collingwood) This side although not have the talent of the Power show no signs whatsoever of even pinching a win

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

How true is this. Seriously people, think about the next couple of years also. What confidence is our young playing group going to build on?

Sydney Blue:

We could have Barassi, Norm Smith, Allan Jeans and Jock McHale as well as whoever else that has achieved sustained success as a coach and it would barely make an iota of difference at the moment.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

When Collo said we had plenty of C-Z graders he was talking about the quality of our side as it currently stands. Many of these C-Z graders are our young players and have the potential to develop into A-B grade players. They're young and have limited AFL experience... therefore there's no way you can bracket them as A or B grade-players yet. Too say that Collo labelled all of our young players as shit is drawing a long bow.

And as far as how those comments will affect them.... Well, I'm sure if any of them are worth their salt as AFL footballers, Collo's comments should actually spur them on to do better instead of having a deflating effect.

_________________
When Dick became President, it was as if everyone at Carlton came out of the hailstorm and into the sunshine - Stephen Kernahan

YARRAN!!





.

I doubt that the players that aren't up to mustard haven't been made well aware behind closed doors that they're in the firing line. It's a cut-throat business and Collo is only saying the same thing that 90% of the football world is saying, we're bereft of talent. The players that currently aren't up to the task at the moment have two choices, either take their chance and do their best to forge themselves an AFL career, or bide their time until they get the chop.
I'm glad that Pagan and Collo are coming out and stating that we're crap, because it's true. Hard nosed men in charge will win out over touchy-feely corporate wankers (Thomas and Buttersssssss) every day in the sporting world.
The day Denis comes out and takes the full blame for a loss (ala Thomas) is the day I start thinking that perhaps he's not the man for the job ahead.

For $800k a year - No i don't think he has, and i do believe we signed him on for another 3 years without giving it ENOUGH thought.

Having said that.........................Pagan was the coach of the 90's! His ability to create a team has not, and will not be matched! All other 15 teams in the AFL were, quite frankly, jelous! And so they should have been. They were a great outfit and Dennis knew exactly what to do with them. They played good, honest and (IMHO) most importantly a 'Traditional' Style of football that was not only effective but entertaining to watch.

But now days, unfortunatly it's about who gets 35+ possesions a game! The game has moved on and evolved from being the tough and physical game it once was!
Now days, i feel teams go out 'Not to loose' rather than 'Go out to win!'

I have been very critical of Pagan and have upset a few people on this site because of it so i do my best to stay out of it at times.

It's not that i don't respect him - quite the opposite! I just think that the game has moved past his once feared tatics into a new generation.

Plus, i also feel that Carlton needs to be re-built from the ground up. Pagan has 3 years with us and will be 61 when that contract ends. I personally can't see him coaching long past that. So Pagan will (if he does in fact retire when his new contract ends) be leaving us in what i see as our most critical time.

For the next 3 years we will need to show an emphisis on drafting and building a strong team for the future and i really can't see us playing finals football till MAYBE 2007!

Pagan was, and will always be a legendary coach. But i was a little dissapointed with re-signing him for 3 years.

I could be proved wrong though! And, to be honest, i though that i was
after seeing the way we went about our football in the Wizard Cup!

Goals were kicked on the run AND by other players than just our forwards!
Our forward line was effective because it wasn't always flooded and congested by our own players!
We would attack through the centre of the ground rather than kicking along the wing to a contest.
Our defensive efforts relied on contest and, not since 2001, we relied on out-muscling opposistions forwards and marking than just a slap-stick attempt at spoiling the ball!
Players had a specific role and (most importantly) felt comfortable in their posistion knowing exactly what was required of them.

So far this season i have seen none of the above. i am starting to believe that Pagan is playing me for a fool and knows damn well what he is doing because after seeing how AMAZINGLY effective and skillfull our dissposal was in rounds 18-22 last season and our pre-season this year..............there must be a reason as to why we look so shit this season!

Perhaps Pagan see's that when Kouta retires, there is going to be an amazingly huge hole in our midfield and that we really don't have the star quality to fill it!
Perhaps Pagan knows that with the posistion we are in, and the situation we have been in, we need at least a few quality picks in order to go forward rather than just 'treading water' for the next 5-10 years!

Perhaps Pagan see's an opportunity to pick up two quality picks this year, seeing as though it is the last year of the PP's, and deems it worthy enough of grabbing yet another wooden spoon when the reward can proove to be 10x's it's value in years to come?????

I don't know - but i would hope so.

It's either one of two things...............Pagan has, quite frankly, been out-coached this year OR he is letting himself be out-coached!..............i hope to god it's the later of the two!

p.s. Sorry bout the spelling mistakes! i've been drinking!

Come on Sydney Blue what Pagan and Collo have said is only a reflcetion of what most Blues supporters / opposition Supporters and the Media have been saying for the last 2-3 Years. DP was commended in trying to bring in discards from other clubs in the hope that being on there last chance is just that they are on there last chance dont fire up now you wont be playing AFL anymore. The commenst to C-Z would be mainly in reference to the second chancers and players who havnt progressed much in 6 years. I didint agree to them until i researched the list and realised i had my head in the sand thinkin we were a lot better than people credited.
Read what our list is made up of http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/vi ... 10&start=0
[url][/url]

Check down and see what our team is made up of.

Okay so now everyone has criticised these second chancers and it really is up to them they can do many things the elite players do .. Extra training / skill sessions ... do more weights and make people eat there own words .... i know i would if someone suggested i was a c-grader i would want to prove them wrong.

Most of the time Pagan has stated what we all know they try hard but hack the ball up dont have the finishing skills ect. Also i think the younger kids are not under the spotlight really is the second chancers and tehy are getting a chance to play ... either perform or you are gone .........

As a final word i do believe that the infusion of better talent and another Gun or 2 from another team will fix up the inbalance ... also the second chancers who do stand up and remain will play better in a better team pretty simple theory really... The problem is you can have say 10 - 15 C- Z graders prob 5 -10 untried unknowns and 5 -15 A- C+ Graders
What have we got 15 - 25 C-Z graders and the remaining are C+ to A grade and Unknowns theres your answer its up to some of those C-Z graders to grab there chance and become C+ / B / A make a name for themselves.
flower sounds like i trying to do my ABC lol

I am a Pagan fan. My family is largley North Melbourne followers so I'll always have their perspective, but watching the Roos in the 90's (except 1995!) was a pleasure. Fast, direct, skilful football. Great team to watch.

Late 90's we were overpossessing and our skills started going downhill.

The list started to degenerate and we all knew, well, except for naive fans , that we were in for a rude shock. A very rude shock. We had no underclass of players coming through. Wahts worse is we would pick up shit from other clubs and we were asked to support them. Who honestly cheered for McKernan in his first game?

Pagan was given a horrible list and then the club was penalised.

We won't know how good Pagan is for 2 more years, as the list becomes something that suits his game plan. Your pain over the past 4 years is really only Phase 1. We have a few years of being mediocre to come yet. But without draft picks there's nothing Pagan can do. And i dont mean #1's. He has to be given lost of #20's and #30s to suit his game plan - like the Eagles, solid players that are good and fast.

Pagan is already a historical champion and an esteemed coach. he may become a legend of the game if he sets us up for a premiership over the next 5 years. But those who expect us to be top 8 already are ignoring history, fact.. I hear your frustration but its way too early to tell.

Pagan has been brilliant - and the fact most of us cannot see it shows why he is coaching and we are not. He has a very clear plan and has remained very consistant to the plan - he clearly has the support of Collo on the plan.

Let me explain a few points:
2003: was a year to look at the list and access where it was. quickly concluded it had attitude problems and was going no where fast. did the smartest thing possible - removed the rubbish. had no draft picks to work with so he brought in players with the 'right' work ethic and attitude... building of the pagan culture. PLUS went with young players... know it was going to take a number of years to build a successful team.
2004: we saw immediate improvement everyone was re-invigorated and we started to play some great football towards the end. a testament to Pagan's coaching. finally some draft picks ...and picks we went for, we also tried to trade and get more picks. that didn't quite work out because no one wanted our players for the picks we needed. again Pagan remains committed to building the list with young kids.
2005: the wizard cup, hicup. we picked up from where we left at the end of 2004 and Pagan, like all of us thought, wow the recovery is coming along even better than i thought. very quickly into the season he is reminded again of our limitations and refocuses on is plan - need more talent through the draft, time to see who to axe. we are not playing to win games, we are playing for Dennis to access the list

IMO he was given the contract extension because Collo and co know it is going to take time to build the list. He may indeed retire at the end of the 3 years (doubt it though - finally when he has the players he will leave ...mmmm)

IMO only a successful coach with confidence and conviction would be able to get the Carlton board to support his strategy which includes finishing last this year. short term pain for long term success.

I use the great man Jezza as an example. Was a great great player but terrible coach and yet won a premiership because the team were great. This is when you can afford to have a junior/cheap coach because the players on the park know how to win. When the team is a rabble and they are that is when you need a coach who remains confident in his plan and Pagan certainly is. You need to spend money when you are down not when you are up - this is a common business mistake.


One final comment. I totally agree that Pagan this year has been out-coached and that the players, Campo great example, are mentally shot and not enjoying their football. I would like to see Pagan help his players a little on this front - but hey he is not perfect and infact I think he does not care, he is focusing on list accessment and development and not winning every game

Pagan is the right man and his strategy is sound because it is the only strategy that works long term in the salary cap/draft system that we play in. As long as the board know this and believe then - that is all that matters.

But in the mean time - keep the posts coming I love to see the passion this club engenders.

I, too, am a Pagan fan.

Pagan was a very good caoch at North. He started there at the under 19 level, and developed young players through the club, and eventually coached those players at senior level. He knew everything about those players.

He came to us and knew nothing about our list.

In fact there has been some suggestion he had no idea how bad we were. That first year for him was shattering. To have no draft picks just exacerbated his horror - it meant there was nothing he could do.

All he wanted was to coach Carlton. He understands the jumper, the history, what it means to be Carlton. Remember how he described his first MCG experience as Carlton coach?

He has done what he can with the senior list - 10 wins was extraordinary with what he had - but it simply stuffed us with picks, and misled all of us with that horrible "expectation" thing. I accept that we have gone backwards this year, but I for one enjoyed the pre-season win.

Now he is building from below. The bullants are growing in confidence and playing good footy, winning footy. Senior players are rotated through and the kids are being developed - the O'hailpins, Russell, Blackwell, Hartlet. ....

Mate, this is not about this year and never was - look at Raso - he's next year at best.

I think Pagan is as good as it gets, and we will all be bloody happy we have him when the wins start to roll in. And that will happen. I promise!

_________________
"Two roads diverged in a wood,
and I,
I took the one less travelled by,
and that has made all the difference."

Robert Frost

Pagan has had 1 year and 1 pick in the real draft and some blokes want results from that! Honestly some of you blokes must have loved JE - give me immediate average results rather than a sustained rebuilding. Pagan is not trying to win a few games - try to understand that - he is systematically rebuilding a shit list/ shit cultured club and last draft was year 1 in that process. Give him two more years/drafts and then make a judgement - anything before that is just purile crap.

It was recognised by the football world - not couch wankers but blokes who had played/coached etc that our list was an absolute shocker - gee guess then it would take time to rebuild. Well be patient!

As for outmoded game plan let me think... Matthews? been around for years. Sheedy? been around for years. Pagan? been around for years. Even bloody Choco played a lifetime ago - where are all these young flag winning coaches?????

Direct football IS the only game in town (just ask Alistair about the flak he is copping) but you need the players and the midfield. We just have to accept at the moment we have neither. That's not coaching, that is this club digging a hole so deep it will take at least 3 more years to drag ourselves out of it - if you can't fathom that then take up something else for a while because we are a long, long way off before coaching on a saturday has any relevance to anything.

Pagan's job at the moment is to rebuild the club's culture and to rebuild the list and train young men to be ready for when their bodies are able to play a game style that brings success. I do not want a tiddley winks coach that will diminish the results and achieve nothing long term for the club.

Denis/ like Barass all those years ago at Carlton/Nth and even Melbourne (as a so called has been who rebuilt that club so it is pushing now) is fixing a massive shit hole this club built up over many, many years.

Will he be here to see ultimate success? Maybe not - this is a damn big job that will take a long time - but I am certain of 1 thing - when Denis finishes up this club will again be strong, healthy and ready to do all the neccessary things to achieve ultimate success; something it hasn't been prepared to do since JE came on baord - yes I know about 87 and 95 those two years were despite JE's corrupting ways not because of them!

We were a club living on bullshit and roe coloured glasses and a wonderful ethic that was dribbling out the door as fast as the saving and respect this club also once had.

I love Carlton but we became something so far removed from the Carlton I knew that part of me had stopped caring until finally we got rid of that stupid prick and his debasing ways - he is gone but the crap left behind will take a lot more time to eradicate. I have no doubt Denis is the man for the job, anyone less and we would end up with a series of ups and downs and never ever quite's until possibly we became the next Fitzroy - also once a glorious club, now a faded jumper in some old man's forgotten closet.

Denis (and Collo) will ensure this will not be the case. We will be strong again, not a facade, not a covering over, but a true eradicating, repairing, rebuilding until success is once again ours by right! Right because of all the hard work and expertise not right because of some big mouth's bullshit.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

spot f***ing on!

_________________
R A D I C A L B R O T H E R S

Inspired by the One-Minute Sculptures of Erwin Wurm

"All in all is all we are..."

not More to add 100 % agreement with you guys i am under know illusion as to what Pagan will have to do and i would rather an experienced coach like Pagan than have some newby unknown who might or might not do well and set the club back into the dak ages for the next decade if that happens there wont be a CFC to support.

As i have stated before to advance in anything when you have very little is to sometimes take one step backward than goin to 2 steps forward.. If we as some people suggest end up finishing in the middle area for the next 2-3 years we will be in the winderness for a very longtime. It may take 1 or 2 years but the sooner some real talent is mixed in the sooner we wlill turn it all around. Now i may not be watching or going to the Blues expecting to win but i will be looking very closely at who should stay IMO and also how the Kids and 2nd year players have developed. IF waite and Walker reaslly take that next step this year that will be enough for me to be happy and ooops beating the Pies and Dons to get our 4 1/2 wins then i will be happy with 2005

I have edited your post to what I think are the ones I disagree with.

You keep harping on about how last year was an illusion. You are conveniently missing the point. Your logic isn't there:

You're saying we're sh*t and admitting we're sh*t this year. But if we were sh*t and won 10 games last year then something must have caused it. You blame other clubs. Well you can only take on each side as you find them and therefore we were not sh*t last year.

You have no explanation except other clubs letting us win in order to explain our victories last year. Essendon* and Melbourne played in the finals, Geelong were injury depleted yes, but we beat them by 9 goals. You give Pagan ZERO credit for last year, ZERO responsibility.

And yet you give Pagan almost COMPLETE responsbility for the goings on this year. C'mon, you can't have it both ways.

Secondly, your beef about Allan, Murphy, Franchina, Hulme, Beaumont and Murphy.

Fact:
1) Franchina held a contract until end of 2004 and was kept although being skills-wise inadequate. He was kept because of his loyalty to the jumper and to the coach and team.

2) The others were got rid of because they dissented against what Pagan made them do. They actively disobeyed team instructions and were poor role models for kids. Perhaps no-one has told you about what happened in rd 22 2003 Sydney. I remember telling some Carlton supporters in Sydney why we lost that day and it finally made sense to them.

Allan is not playing senior footy, and neither are Hulme or Beaumont. Murphy is skilled but you saw how soft he was at Carlton.

Until you get the idea that building a team is not just building talent but eradicating dissent within the ranks then you won't understand what Pagan has had to go through. If you were the boss and your employees were bad mouthing you in front of clients, in front of other employees etc., complaining they had to work too hard, what would you do? Any sensible manager would fire them at the termination of their contract or transfer them away. You say you've been in senior management, that's exactly what you would do isn't it? How come some didn't dissent and some did? If they all dissented you'd worry, but if Fev stays for less money when he could rightfully have looked for more at another club after kicking 63 goals in 2003 then you'd start to think, perhaps it's not the coach but individuals involved.

We were losing badly in 2003 and who was in the team? Beaumont, Allan, Murphy, Hulme.

No different to this year or last year.

And I'm going to stop arguing with you because you just simply will not accept it that Pagan had ZERO draft picks in his first year as coach (2002 draft with Black Friday) and had 1 good pick in the 2003 draft (Walker). He inherited a list that had largely been created by Parkin and Brittain. What else can the guy do with the cattle at his disposal? If the cattle at his disposal are poor then what can he do?

It seems too simple doesn't it? Well, sometimes, simple answers are the correct ones. I have yet to hear a coherent argument on why keeping Allan et al would have made this team any better.

_________________
"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Look also at the sides we didn't beat last year, particularly the top sides:

Port, Melb, St K, Geelong, Eagles- thrashed by every one of them. We may have gone OK against the lower sides but were miles from the really good sides. Not much has changed really.